Fuel Bladder Necessary for PZEV Certification? Apparently Not.

I wonder if it wasn't a trade off for safety reason and proximity to battery?

Don't feel bad about the handle thing, just tell any one you seen me do it too!

 

Think about a future where a hybrid uses waste bio-matter ethanol as fuel. With the engine frequently off, evaporative emissions from that are even more difficult to deal with than with gas... unless it has a bladder.

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I was thinking that in theory the bladder makes it possible to get Slightly better gas mileage since the vapors can't escape. But I don't understand the science of it either and many of our friends in Europe, Asia, and Australia who don't have it report about the same results or better in terms of consumption.

 

I think this pretty much confirms my suspicion that Toyota just plain dropped the ball when it comes to the bladder. Since the bladder isn't necessary for emissions ratings it just seems that more problems were created by the addition of the bladder such as the wildly fluctuating accuracy of the "guess gauge" and the fuel burping problem. The fuel burping alone probably cancels out or even exceeds the emissions that they hoped to save.

 

I saw a Ford Focus today with a FZEV sticker on the side window. I have a lot to learn about what this means, apparently.

 

Some one had said some thing about ethanol. Haven't checked the specs of total fuel system, but is the fuel line stainless.

If yes, would be flex ready and could be sold into South America as is or a few mods.

If no could also be forward looking to that MKT as well as US. Simple change out and away you go in a time of limited oil.

My dad was a MECH, he was always PO that us car makers were going wrong direction when it came to compression. (US went to low) His threory was high comp and ethonal or methanol ect.

Where as this vehicle has 13 to 1 comp. Would burn either very good, in theory!

 

I got an 11.05 gallon fill-up the time before last which allowed 530 miles on a tank where I only got 47.5 mpg. And I had just gone down to one pip. Heck, I went 230 miles before the first pip went. I hate that I don't have a larger and more consistent gas tank. But, it's not the end of the world.

 

Have had a couple 11+ on 1 pip. I hear Ya!

 

I have had 3 fill-ups of over 12 gallons. The last one was 12.4 gallons on a flashing pip that went from mile 892 to mile 1052 on the MFD at which time I chickened out and went to the station; still under engine power I might add.

 

Well, there is a difference between a PZEV vehicle and an AT-PZEV vehicle: Partial zero-emissions vehicle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Prius falls into the latter category. Camry Hybrid also is AT-PZEV certified: Toyota Camry Performance & Specs

The fuel tank bladder is intended to reduce hydrocarbon emissions into the atmosphere. The good news is that the Camry Hybrid fuel tank does not have a bladder. However instead of a bladder, the fuel tank has an extra pump that is intended to help keep gasoline vapor out of the air - hence, it also contains a layer of complexity that regular vehicles do not have. Highlander Hybrid has a similar fuel system as Camry Hybrid, although HiHy is PZEV certified.

My guess is that 3G Prius will likely have a similar fuel system as CamHy and HiHy since the 2G fuel system is not as easy to use as we owners would like.

Why does Classic and 2G Prius have the bladder while other Toyota hybrids don't? Probably because the US Prius fuel system was designed back in the late 90s. Toyota had a chance to learn from that and designed an all-new HiHy fuel tank system first introduced in 2005.

 

Just educating myself...

2007 Ford Focus PZEV - Car News/Green Machines/Car Shopping/Hot Lists/Reviews/Car and Driver - Car And Driver

Carry on...

 

My first computer used amplifiers, resistors, and capacitors. Next to it was a computer that used a TTY terminal with punched paper tape. Then came the 80-column cards and readers followed by all manner of dumb terminals or coax connected displays. Today, I use a laptop and program whatever and whenever including small computers the size of a cracker crumb.

Technology changes and sometimes we have to put up with systems that taught us "lessons learned" so the next versions are better than those before. Often the newer systems cost less and work better than the ones that came before. It is how the world of technology works.

So maybe in 2010 we'll see the end of the bladder tank or maybe not. Regardless, it is unlikely we'll see it in any new designs and we can be thankful for that.

Bob Wilson

 

If the bladder is the price to pay for all the other pluses in a Prius, I'd say we're still way ahead of the game. I honestly can't fathom why people get so worked up about it.

Every vehicle on the road is a compromise of technology, performance, and cost amongst other things. When the Prius system was developed it was already on the cutting edge of emissions technology. New technology costs money, making it tough to roll it out in a moderately priced vehicle. You'll notice, for example, that all of the Lexus hybrids and Camry Hybrid also have lower tailpipe emissions than the Prius. I think this is simply a combination of newer design, and the ability to pack more high tech goodies into a vehicle at a higher price point. The '06 "redesign" of the Prius was exceedingly minor. Aside from the MFD, taillights, the touring suspension, and a few other cosmetic things they are basically the same car. Making any more systematic changes would have required a huge amount of testing and certifications that would have greatly increased the cost of the changes. My guess is that at that time, based on the number of sales to that point Toyota would have been doing well to have broken even on their huge initial investment in the Prius and was not up for pouring a bunch more money into it until it had proven itself financially successful. I can't really blame them for that. They had already been waiting about 8 years to see their investment and patience pay off. Now that the Prius is a clear success and we know a major revision is coming next year I would fully expect Toyota has put everything they've learned in the last 10 years into it, assuming it fits within the Prius' price point.

Rob

 

Most car companies including Toyota will produce a given model for a six-year period (i.e., 2G Prius will be produced from the 2004 to 2009 model years). During that period, it would be unusual to see substantial engineering changes made to the model, especially when annual sales in the US are only 150K-175K units per year. This allows parts suppliers to amortize tooling over a longer production run and reduces parts costs, field support costs, etc.

You may or may not be happy with the result. However, it is what it is. Hopefully 3G will have a fuel system similar to CamHy and HiHy.

 

Yup, mid-cycle updates are definitely not the norm. That's why the introductions of the Highlander and Camry hybrids were so exciting. They're sneak previews of what continuous engineering improvements bring. Not all changes trickle down to the lowest priced offerings. But in our case, expecting things like the much smaller inverter is quite realistic.

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My guess is that the US Classic and 2G fuel system was designed by a bunch of newly-minted engineers who graduated from the Rube Goldberg school of engineering!
Rube Goldberg machine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The CamHy and HiHy fuel systems are more complex than normal; however I haven't seen any complaint about owners having trouble refueling or a pump failure, so far.