For all of you ethanol nasayers

Interesting. If it's as good as gasoline (or slightly better) then at least it would make us less dependent on foreign oil.

I don't know what to think about ethanol.

 

There was a story on NPR about this new study.

They spoke with one of the authors and he talked about how you could go nuts including all the different kinds/amounts of energy used in the production of the ethanol.

Then they spoke with someone with another view. He was a prof at Cornell and he said that the study didn't include some obvious energy used in producing the ethanol. Like the gas used by the harvesting machines and tractors. He said that was typical of studies that were out to show the goodness of ethanol energy.

You can hear the story at npr.org - I'm sure I'm not doing it justice. It was quite interesting to hear the two views.

 

I've heard the story on NPR this morning. Interesting

 

Ethanol and ethanol mixtures [greater than E10] are probably the
only fuel likely to be able to eventually run in a Prius, with minor
ECU tweaking, as opposed to a massive ICE replacement or getting
a completely different car. If Toyota would get off their nice person and
actually support flex-fuel and PHEV projects based around the
current Prius, lots of people could do meaningful work on migration
strategies without making huge reinvestments.
.
_H*

 

I've yet to read a study that included the cost of pollution beyond GHG, even though fertilizer run-off is a HUGE problem.

Its make them all exercises in creative accounting.

 

It may be just me, but it seems like you would want to at least include the obvious energy like the prof at Cornell mentioned. I can see how you could go crazy, cause you could also figure in fuel to transport and all sorts of things, doesn't mean you shouldn't try to get the major sources of energy used.

 

Well if we are down to discussing the gas that tractors and harvesting machines use and without it ethanol looks better then I think we can at least say that ethanol is not worse then gasoline. It would then seem smart to use ethanol as we can create it ourself.

I'm still not convinced but I do think it looks promising. The other good thing is that most engines can probably be retrofitted to run on ethanol so it could be a good way out!

 

I love it, that they showed who was behind the studies. Still, it takes numerous studies that come to the same general conclusion before we can really get an idea of what's what, ya know? Six different studies and six different conclusions. Errors and omissions. Doesn't sound as if we're well on our way, does it?

 

Shouldn't E85 work just fine in a Prius? Most modern cars have an oxygen sensor that adjusts the burn and are already ready for ethanol based fuel. Toyota sells cars in Brazil and it is required by law that all cars sold in Brazil are flex fuel, so they do support it.

The only difference between a standard car and a flex fuel car is the flex fuel car has a small secondary gas tank for cold weather. Cold weather might not even be an issue with the Prius as it has a different ignition system than other cars. Furthermore a lot of us have a block heater anyways.

 

People have been doing that already for centuries! Drinking home-grown ethanol is nothing new. Feeding it to your car may be though, if you don't live in the Midwest.

As for true costs of fuel, how much is taken into account for the military protection of the oil supplies we've been providing? Local corn, cane, beet, and grass fields used to produce ethanol don't need that.

 

E10 is stated as the max ethanol content supported by the u.s.
models, and there have been reports of ECUs getting confused by
E85. But as you say, no reason that different ECU programming
couldn't support E85 and beyond. The problem is political, not
technological -- and that's not even touching on the issue of
ethanol production itself.
.
_H*

 

Sort of. It's really just an easy dismissal of liability, having nothing to do with actual ability.

E20 has already passed the first stages of statewide rollout research in Minnesota. This spring a more extensive study to prove that existing vehicles can support it will begin. So when the approved mandate begins in 2013, all gas will be a 20% blend here instead of the current 10%.

 

From wikipedia:
North American vehicles from approximately 1980 onward can run on 10% ethanol/90% gasoline (e.g., E10) with no modifications. Prior to 1980, many cars imported into the United States contained rubber, aluminium, and other materials that were generally non-compatible with any ethanol in their fuel delivery systems, and these cars experienced problems when E10 was first introduced. American made cars from the late 1970's onward can run on E10 with no modifications. E10 fuel is widely available. Going beyond 10% ethanol generally requires special engineering.

I also recall that for E85 there can not be any aluminum or magnesium in the engine and no metal or only stainless steel in the fuel line. Ethanol is more corrosive.

 

In comparing E85 to gasoline, I always see all the negatives about the production of ethanol as far how much energy it takes to produce it. Does it not take a lot of energy to mine petroleum, transport it across the world, and then refine it. I continually see the anti-E85 lobby talking about how the production of E85 takes so much energy and is harmful to the environment. In actuality wouldn't the production of E85 have a net positive effect on net fossil-fuel consumption and the environment?

It seems the oil companies are afraid of it. Shell will not even allow ethanol in any of its pumps in any form or percentage. Our companies just dropped them as our gasoline and diesel provider because of this. Wil some of you guys with a science and /or engineering background give me a heads up on E85?

 

Shell has 10% ethanol in all their pumps around here, as required by law. (I believe all of Illinois, actually. Minnesota too, according to john1701)

 

The parts that really confuses me about the "energy required to make ethanol" debate:

1. The experts say corn isn't the best source, other crops are more efficient for ethanol. Why aren't the other crops becoming more prevalent?

2. When will the farm machinery start running on E85 and/or flex? If part of the problem is burning petro in harvesters, let's stop doing it.

{Folks, I just had a big "Aha" moment. It revolves around the whole "market driven economy" argument. If we wait for the market (i.e., the business community at large) to react to the need for non-petrochemical fuels, then we get exactly that - a reaction. What we need is something pro-active. Or Pre-active (ooh, I like the sound of that.) Anyone with a brain can see that the market will eventually need to react. I have no doubt it will, too. But it will be too slow and too expensive to wait for that reaction. The country, the world actually, needs to begin to accelerate this change now. If that takes tax $ and public policy changes, so be it. Some things are worth it. This interlude was brought to you by the Toyota Prius. }

Anyway, it seems like ethanol will be a part of the picture. It'll sure be nice when our transportation energy is 99% electric and home-grown ethanol. Hey, I can dream.

Karl in Philly