Fined in LA for being too old

jared2 · Apr 12, 2006

LA cop fines 82-year-old for crossing too slowly

Associated Press in Los Angeles
Wednesday April 12, 2006
The Guardian

Los Angeles police have defended an officer who issued a fine of $114 (Â£65) to an 82-year-old woman for crossing the road too slowly.
Mayvis Coyle said she had been unable to finish crossing before the pedestrian light turned back to red, and a motorcycle officer told her she was obstructing traffic. On Friday, the green phase on the five-lane road also had younger pedestrians running to cross in time.

Marlin · Apr 12, 2006

Sure sounds bad, but how slow was she? Is there no limit?

Let's say a quadriplegic tries to cross the road by dragging himself across with his chin. It takes him an hour to cross the road and traffic is blocked while he does it. Should that be allowed?

Perhaps she should have been in a wheel chair or one of those electric carts.

I think we need to know just how long she was taking to cross the road before we make a judgement on the officer.

hyo silver · Apr 12, 2006

Perhaps a few police officers need an attitude adjustment? Changing the timing of the lights wouldn't hurt, either.

airportkid · Apr 12, 2006

Five lanes is 60 feet, give or take. Walking half a mile an hour would take a bit less than 90 seconds (a minute and a half) to cross all five lanes.

If our crass world is so selfish it can't grant the infinitesimal trifle of 90 seconds to someone who needs it, and graciously, with a smile, our scale of values needs some serious readjustment.

The LAPD needs Jack Webb back. He'd've stopped his squad car and directed traffic by hand until she'd made it across the street, then tipped his cap to her before driving off to go shoot it out with a kidnapper.

Mark Baird
Alameda CA

jfschultz · Apr 12, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Apr 12 2006, 12:37 PM) [snapback]238617[/snapback]</div>

Five lanes is 60 feet, give or take. Walking half a mile an hour would take a bit less than 90 seconds (a minute and a half) to cross all five lanes.

If our crass world is so selfish it can't grant the infinitesimal trifle of 90 seconds to someone who needs it, and graciously, with a smile, our scale of values needs some serious readjustment.

The LAPD needs Jack Webb back. He'd've stopped his squad car and directed traffic by hand until she'd made it across the street, then tipped his cap to her before driving off to go shoot it out with a kidnapper.

Mark Baird
Alameda CA
[/b]
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That day is long past. In today's selfish world we just might find ourselves just a few votes away from making it legal to run over anyone in your way.

imntacrook · Apr 12, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Apr 12 2006, 01:37 PM) [snapback]238617[/snapback]</div>

Five lanes is 60 feet, give or take. Walking half a mile an hour would take a bit less than 90 seconds (a minute and a half) to cross all five lanes.

If our crass world is so selfish it can't grant the infinitesimal trifle of 90 seconds to someone who needs it, and graciously, with a smile, our scale of values needs some serious readjustment.

The LAPD needs Jack Webb back. He'd've stopped his squad car and directed traffic by hand until she'd made it across the street, then tipped his cap to her before driving off to go shoot it out with a kidnapper.

Mark Baird
Alameda CA
[/b]
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Right on about Jack Webb! 99.9% of the time I automatically side with the cops, this happens to be the .1%

IsrAmeriPrius · Apr 12, 2006

More details:

Woman, 82, Gets Ticket for Slow Crossing

Woman Fined for Taking Too Long To Cross Road

DocVijay · Apr 12, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jfschultz @ Apr 12 2006, 01:47 PM) [snapback]238626[/snapback]</div>

...we just might find ourselves just a few votes away from making it legal to run over anyone in your way.
[/b]
Click to expand...

Hell, they've got my vote. I'd just have to drive my Explorer with it's "pedestrian friendly" bumper more often! The red car next to it is a regular sized minivan...

Mystery Squid · Apr 12, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Apr 12 2006, 01:37 PM) [snapback]238617[/snapback]</div>

Five lanes is 60 feet, give or take. Walking half a mile an hour would take a bit less than 90 seconds (a minute and a half) to cross all five lanes.

If our crass world is so selfish it can't grant the infinitesimal trifle of 90 seconds to someone who needs it, and graciously, with a smile, our scale of values needs some serious readjustment.

The LAPD needs Jack Webb back. He'd've stopped his squad car and directed traffic by hand until she'd made it across the street, then tipped his cap to her before driving off to go shoot it out with a kidnapper.

Mark Baird
Alameda CA
[/b]
Click to expand...

Full agreement...

Anyone ever try to cross Queens Blvd. in NYC? You almost CAN'T, even if you obey the "walk" signals, it starts flashing WELL before you reach the other side. They started calling it the Boulevard of Death, and ultimately ended up changing the timing on all the lights...

jared2 · Apr 12, 2006

I drive on Queens Blvd every day. I don't think I would dare cross it on foot.

See article:

Seniors walking targets: Crossing times on streets too short: report
Daily News
Oren Yaniv

Senior citizens of New York: Cross at your own risk.

The city's seniors make up a third of the city's pedestrian fatalities, even though they represent only 13% of the population, according to a study released yesterday.

Part of the problem: There simply isn't enough "walk" time for the average senior citizen to make it across safely.

Most of the city's crosswalks require pedestrians to walk 4 feet per second to get across before the light changes, according to the Transportation Alternatives study. Yet most senior citizens walk at an average pace of 3 feet per second.

"The city must give seniors more time to cross the street," said Amy Pfeiffer, a director at Transportation Alternatives.

Joseph Chaboty, 75, of Washington Heights, agrees. "The light changes too quickly and you have to walk faster," he said after struggling to cross Broadway and St. Nicholas Ave. at 168th St., one of the intersections featured in the study.

He said he has stayed safe so far by being extra-careful and added that many of his friends say they face a similar problem.

Indeed, slow crossing time is the number-one complaint in AARP surveys, said Nelson Peralta, of the Columbia Center for the Active Life of Minority Elders.

"The crossing at 168th and Broadway is a nightmare I see every day," he said.

That intersection includes a monstrous crossing of 12 lanes and two medians. The walk signal lasts a mere 30 seconds, making striding across a challenge even for the young and the fit.

Amy Housen, 60, who suffers from heart and knee ailments, needed two signal cycles to complete the crossing, as did many other pedestrians observed yesterday.

"Sometimes, I have to hold the cars so they'd let me cross," she said, demonstrating a "stop" gesture with her hand.

Half a minute is also the allotted time at 177th St. and Broadway, another surveyed junction. It's only a six-lane stretch, but turning vehicles and no medians make it dangerous.

The study looked at six intersections in four neighborhoods with a high concentration of elders. It recommends increased crossing time, more "walk" phases free from turning traffic and more pedestrian medians in neighborhoods with a large senior population, such as Washington Heights and Coney Island.

Department of Transportation spokesman Tom Cocola did not dispute the findings. "They definitely have a point," he said. "We'll take their specific requirements under advisement."

But he pointed out that seniors' slower pace has been factored in at Queens Blvd., Ocean Parkway and other main roads. He also noted that the pedestrian fatality rate in the city is at a 90-year low.

IsrAmeriPrius · Apr 14, 2006

In today's Los Angeles Times:

She Has World at Her Not-So-Fleet Feet
The LAPD is under fire here and abroad for ticketing an elderly woman when she failed to make it across a street before the signal turned.

By Amanda Covarrubias and Cynthia H. Cho, Times Staff Writers
April 14, 2006

[excerpts]

As Coyle tells it, she was doing her best to shuffle across Foothill Boulevard, with her cane in one hand, groceries in the other, when the light changed from "Walk" to "Don't Walk".

Enter an LAPD motorcycle officer, who gave her the ticket, which she is challenging in court.

"This is the first ticket I ever got in my life â€¦ for trying to cross the street," Coyle said. "I always try to obey the laws of the land."

An 80-year-old woman from Canada sent her a letter of support with a $20 bill. A representative from Ellen DeGeneres' talk show called Thursday, trying to book the great-great-grandmother on her TV show.

"I didn't want all this publicity," said Coyle. "But I'm not objecting to being used if it gets the lights changed and gets respect for the elderlyâ€¦. I think people can see I'm being sincere," she continued. "I'm speaking for all those seniors who can't get across the street."

Coyle said she was crossing the intersection on a "Walk" signal, but was only past mid-street when it changed.

That's when a motorcycle officer rode up and began repeatedly shouting at her, "You're obstructing the flow of traffic!" she said.

"I don't like being talked to like I'm a 6-year-old," she added.

Coyle said she tried to explain to him that she couldn't make it across in time because of her age, but he refused to listen.

"He should have gotten off his motorcycle and helped me cross when he saw me struggling," Coyle said.

But the Los Angeles Police Department said the officer saw her begin to cross the street after the "Don't Walk" sign began flashing, signaling it was about to change.

"While many people may look at that and say the LAPD should have a greater heart and should care more that this was an 82-year-old woman, our desire is that this 82-year-old woman, and all citizens of L.A., conduct themselves in a manner that is safe," said Michel Moore, deputy chief of operations at the department's Valley Bureau.

Moore noted that an elderly woman was struck and killed by a car in the area just eight days earlier.

Click here for the complete article[/b]
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Schmika · Apr 14, 2006

There are some things you just DO NOT DO......However, I want to k now if there is more to te story. What if the lady BEGAN to cross after the don't walk started flashing. We are all ASSUMING tat she was standing at the corner and began to cross as soon as it turned.

We have ALL seen the people who show up late and try to rush across.

That being said, if the officer saw her start when it went walk and she still did not make it....well, that was a bad call.

Lastly, other than in that small community.....it is no one elses business.

dipper · Apr 14, 2006

Watch the power of AARP do its magic.

When AARP is done with that cop, he will be an animal cop. :lol:

daniel · Apr 15, 2006

It really does kinda depend on whether she started crossing near the beginning of the WALK cycle, or whether, as the cop claims, she began crossing after it started to flash DON'T WALK. Lots of folks believe the cop automatically. But I've been lied to enough by cops and other law-enforcement officers to know that cops are perfectly capable of lying.

Case in point: When I was in custody, charged with a misdemeanor, and decided not to answer what I considered inappropriate questions, and the cops told me that my silence constituted the felony of "withholding information." (They wanted the names of all my friends, supposedly so they'd know where to find me should I not show up for court.) They could hold me if they wanted. But they LIED when they told me that my remaining silent constituted a felony.

Case in point: I had been arrested on a different occasion for a misdemeanor. Some friends were detained for questioning. The cops told them they did not have the right to remain silent, because they were not charged with a crime. (The cops also told them that if they did remain silent they would be charged with a crime.) The cops were LYING. You ALWAYS have the right to remain silent, unless you are in court or testifying before a Grand Jury.

So we cannot assume the cop was telling the truth. More witnesses are needed.

Schmika · Apr 15, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 15 2006, 10:33 AM) [snapback]240153[/snapback]</div>

It really does kinda depend on whether she started crossing near the beginning of the WALK cycle, or whether, as the cop claims, she began crossing after it started to flash DON'T WALK. Lots of folks believe the cop automatically. But I've been lied to enough by cops and other law-enforcement officers to know that cops are perfectly capable of lying.

Case in point: When I was in custody, charged with a misdemeanor, and decided not to answer what I considered inappropriate questions, and the cops told me that my silence constituted the felony of "withholding information." (They wanted the names of all my friends, supposedly so they'd know where to find me should I not show up for court.) They could hold me if they wanted. But they LIED when they told me that my remaining silent constituted a felony.

Case in point: I had been arrested on a different occasion for a misdemeanor. Some friends were detained for questioning. The cops told them they did not have the right to remain silent, because they were not charged with a crime. (The cops also told them that if they did remain silent they would be charged with a crime.) The cops were LYING. You ALWAYS have the right to remain silent, unless you are in court or testifying before a Grand Jury.

So we cannot assume the cop was telling the truth. More witnesses are needed.
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Daniel, admit it....you ALWAYS automatically believe cops are lying. That is PATHETIC. Your examples are oversimplifications because the 5th amendment (right to silence) is NOT claimable if you are not charged with a crime. There are certain times when you CAN be charged with a crime for remaining silent.

It is also LEGAl for cops to lie under certain circumstances (like bluffing criminals, etc) I seem to remember you crime stuff is drug related. Well, I'll lie to druggies until the COW comes home. So sue me.

You know, I COULD be lying about the above....what's yer point.

WHY o WHY wold the officer need to LIE about an old lady crossing a street. Believe it or not, people who have been charged with a crime are 100% more likely to lie about it than the cop ever is.

And before you say the cop needs to lie to get some type of quota....there is PLENTy of crime to go around....I don't need to lie about it.

Your CHIP is pretty daggone heavy on your shoulder.

Three60guy · Apr 15, 2006

Kids, calm down.

Think about it... everyone making comments on this has a bias. Lets turn down the heat and discuss this in a more level headed manner.

Nuff said.

IsrAmeriPrius · Apr 16, 2006

Some investigative reporting by a Los Angeles Times columnist:

Steve Lopez:
Points West

Guilty of `Crossing While Elderly'

April 15, 2006

I don't use a cane, which gave me a clear advantage.

The challenge? Trying to cross the street where 82-year-old Mayvis Coyle got a $114 jaywalking ticket from an overeager LAPD crime-buster for not making it across in time.

I was at the intersection of Foothill Boulevard and Woodward Avenue in Sunland, near Jimmy-Dean's Char-Broiled Burgers and not far from the grocery store Coyle had walked to with the aid of her walking stick.

"This is the first ticket I ever got in my life," an angry and crusading Coyle told The Times. She wants the "Walk" signal changed to allow more time for pedestrians. "I think people can see I'm being sincere. I'm speaking for all those seniors who can't get across the street."

Foothill Boulevard is four lanes wide and roughly 75 feet across. The police claim that on Feb. 15, Coyle â€” whose case is now drawing international attention â€” entered the intersection after the "Don't Walk" sign started flashing. She disputes that and suggests the Los Angeles Police Department officer should have gotten off his motorcycle and helped her "when he saw me struggling" instead of writing a ticket.

For my investigation of the Mayvis Coyle case I took up a position at the northeast point of the intersection for a while, watching the flow of traffic, and noticed the light barely allowed time for cars to get across Foothill on Woodward.

In fact, the light is green for precisely 10 seconds, and the pedestrian sign doesn't even give you a "Walk" sign unless you first press the crossing button.

So I pressed it. The electronic sign gave me the "Walk" signal â€” a stick figure on the move. The stick figure, I noted, did not have a cane.

I stepped off the curb, moving at a normal gait, and before I could even make it to the double yellow line in the middle of the street, the "Don't Walk" sign started flashing.

Should I run for my life, and if so, in which direction?

Imagine poor Mayvis Coyle, weighted down with groceries and picking along with a cane. Why not put hurdles out there to make it even tougher on seniors?

I was able to make it across just as the flashing light switched to a solid "Don't Walk," but barely. In all, I had 27 seconds â€” a tough test for a senior citizen.

"Are you timing the light?" a driver asked, having read about Mayvis Coyle. "We've lived here for 10 years and you can never make it across this intersection in time."

The driver, Nell Canter, had a strong opinion about Mayvis Coyle's ticket.

"It's obscene. You never even see a cop in Sunland," she said, and now one shows up to write a jaywalking ticket.

Meanwhile, Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa wants to jack up the garbage removal fee by 155% to pay for more cops. Maybe if cops weren't wasting their time writing frivolous tickets, we wouldn't need more of them.

By chance, I was leaving the USC campus Thursday when I saw an officer writing a ticket to a cyclist. I didn't know what was going on, but when I got back to my office I had an e-mail from reader Ethan Drogin saying cyclists were being cited for riding their bikes across intersections rather than walking them.

I know the police are trying to protect pedestrians and motorists, and yeah, it's dangerous out there. But come on. You can cross the border illegally and be left alone, but we're ticketing people crossing intersections? Anybody on foot or bike in this traffic-choked city ought to get a commendation, not a citation.

Take it to court, Mayvis. I'll be with you every step of the way.

Los Angeles Times[/b]
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P.S. Karl, the LAPD is notorious for its proliferation of lying police officers.

daniel · Apr 17, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Apr 15 2006, 05:19 PM) [snapback]240309[/snapback]</div>

Daniel, admit it....you ALWAYS automatically believe cops are lying. That is PATHETIC. Your examples are oversimplifications because the 5th amendment (right to silence) is NOT claimable if you are not charged with a crime. There are certain times when you CAN be charged with a crime for remaining silent.
[/b]
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No, Karl, you are very much mistaken. Consult any lawyer. Every person ALWAYS has the right to remain silent, unless she / he is testifying in court or before a Grand Jury, in which case they may use the 5th Amendment protection against self-incrimination. No person is ever required to speak to a cop. It does not matter whether you are charged with a crime or not. If people were required to speak to the cops as long as they had not been charged with a crime, the cops could question people before charging them, and nobody would have any protection at all. Every person always has the right to remain silent when questioned by a cop or by anyone else. I am really quite shocked that you, a police officer, should be so abysmally ignorant of the law, especially on a matter so intimately connected with your normal daily duties.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Apr 15 2006, 05:19 PM) [snapback]240309[/snapback]</div>

It is also LEGAl for cops to lie under certain circumstances (like bluffing criminals, etc)
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Yes, it is legal for cops to lie (unless they are under oath in court). And your lies above and below (above, concerning the right to remain silent, and below, concerning the nature of my crimes) serve to weaken my trust in you. And BTW, I do NOT automatically assume that a cop is lying. I assume that a cop is human, and may therefore be good or bad, honest or dishonest, violent or peaceful, etc., etc., etc.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Apr 15 2006, 05:19 PM) [snapback]240309[/snapback]</div>

I seem to remember you crime stuff is drug related. Well, I'll lie to druggies until the COW comes home. So sue me.
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This is a blatant, flat-out, libel, and I ask you to retract it! I have never been arrested for any drug-related offense. Every single one of my arrests has been for peaceful and respectful non-violent civil disobedience, connected with anti-nuclear protests.

finman · Apr 17, 2006

"even if you obey the "walk" signals, it starts flashing WELL before you reach the other side."

Didn't this happen to Raymond in "Rain Man"? He stopped in the middle of the intersection because the walk sign changed so fast to don't walk.

This is just another sad chapter in our sad society. Go faster, leave the old behind, learn nothing...sheesh, why can't we slow down? What is it that we have evolved (or not evolved!) to accept the ever-increasing rush to end our lives. There has to be a better way...

MarinJohn · Apr 17, 2006

This is a blatant, flat-out, libel, and I ask you to retract it! I have never been arrested for any drug-related offense. Every single one of my arrests has been for peaceful and respectful non-violent civil disobedience, connected with anti-nuclear protests.
[/quote]

Thank you Daniel for trying to make this a better world by your obviously strongly held beliefs. I, too, have been imprisioned in federal penitentaries for demonstrating my beliefs against building and testing nuclear bombs. Those are the only times in my life I have been arrested, and I can tell you the abuse I and others I was with withstood was a real eye-opener into the mentality of law enforcement. They knew what we were there for, that we stood shoulder to shoulder in our determination and belief in non-violence so they sure took advantage of the fact they could severely mistreat us with no reprocussions. Both times they had a field day bashing heads knowing we pledged not to fight back, but to stand united in our beliefs. The whole experience changed my outlook on our political system, and cops (including my relatives who wear the uniform)! Through my personal experience i have come to believe as a group they are not the brightes bulbs in the room, rely on group mentality to get riled up and a code of silence to protect their own, and are not to be trusted as individuals to stand up and be counted to do the right thing. Is there an individual cop here and there out to do the right thing? of course statistics lean toward yes, but stats lie. There are cops, lawyers, and politicians all cut from the same cloth and it is a dangerous and untrustworthy weave, separate and apart from the general good that most humans are made of.

Lastly, and Daniel this applies to you as well as all others on PC: Those of us who regularily post lend the readers an insight into our personalities. When one regularily posts, one involuntarily exposes the nekkid truth of who they are. Regular readers can make this distinction and internally pass judgement on who they would like at their shoulder in case of an emergency. While most of us will never meet each other, we get the general vibe of who we are. When someone posts dishonest information about another poster we readers can 'read' thru the words and assimilate subconsiously our own opinions about the poster and take their future posts accordingly.

Fined in LA for being too old

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Fined in LA for being too old

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