1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Faulty EGR Valve? New HG, OCC, clean IM, EGR, etc...

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Care, Maintenance & Troubleshooting' started by Bryan D, Jan 7, 2024.

  1. Bryan D

    Bryan D New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2024
    8
    4
    0
    Location:
    Washington
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    Good morning everyone, I'd appreciate some feedback on a really small but annoying issue I'm running into after having done my Head Gasket (HG) on my 2013 Prius (235k) that's really annoying me.

    TL;DR - Car has a new HG, Water pump, thermostat, Oil catch can (OCC) installed, crystal-clear EGR system and twice-cleaned IM, no codes being thrown whatsoever, idles like a dream and runs great under power. Car shudders noticeably under low load (sometimes to the point of physically shaking the frame), and following a Gasket Masters video, this issue went away upon unplugging the EGR Valve. Is the valve just shot?

    Context:

    Around August this year my car began to give me the morning death rattles (which upon initial investigation immediately lead me down the 'HG FAILURE' rabbit hole and sent my wallet running for the hills.) It was around this time that I noticed that my coolant was low, so I did what any man in denial would do and topped off the coolant and proceeded to look down other avenues which could have explained the misfires and rattle.

    This lead me to the EGR rabbit hole, which I hoped and prayed was my issue. My first line of defense was cleaning out the EGR and IM to help troubleshoot the misfires, but I was unfortunately only able to get the IM clean with the limited time I had to take my car apart (the notorious EGR bi*ch bolt brought the cooler cleaning to a grinding halt.) I also took the time to replace the PCV valve, Spark plugs, Coil Packs, and all necessary gaskets with the car torn apart.

    As you might have guessed, this didn't solve the looming HG issue, so I began doing my research for all of the necessary parts and repair manuals I'd need to complete the job myself.

    Thanks to you lovely people here on the PriusChat forums, I was able to get all of the necessary manuals, parts, and technical know-how to complete the job at home over the course of about 10-days working off and on. Both coolant systems were drained, with the ICE side getting flushed completely prior to dropping it entirely. I also drained and filled the transmission fluid, which hadn't been done for the life of the car to my knowledge. Timing system was completely replaced (save for oil pump chain since I wasn't able to get off the sprocket), timing marks were triple checked, and the tensioner was properly deployed upon timing cover install (with a full-engine revolution completed to confirm for good measure.) Water pump and thermostat are brand new, OCC was installed to prevent oil from pooling in the IM, and the EGR system was completely cleaned out until it looked like it was fresh off the factory floor. Reassembled, added new oil and filter, and topped off the coolant.

    Upon reassembly and start-up, everything was running smoothly and she was purring like a kitten. Idles sounded clean, no more death rattle, and I waited until the cooling fans started up to ensure proper coolant level. Revving her in maintenence mode gave me zero cause for concern as it sounded great and didn't hesitate in the slightest.

    Fast forward to doing some actual driving with her on the road and I couldn't help but notice a very subtle shudder when she was under light loads (think the Eco-section of the hybrid indicator, not the power section.) This shudder was only present under light loads on her engine and immediately went away with more power. I tried to isolate the issue by rolling down big hills without any power but the issue only ever was present under low loads to the engine.

    Heading back to Google, I finally got a hit on an issue similar to my problem with this Gasket Masters video (
    ). I parked the car not too far from home, shut it down and unplugged the EGR Valve, then started her up and drove home: no shudder.

    So here's my conundrum: if everything else in the car can be assumed to be functioning properly, all EGR system/IM parts are cleaned out thoroughly, and the issue disappears without a functional EGR valve, would that leave the EGR valve as the final culprit?

    This is really the final hiccup in my car, thank you in advance for your input.

    ------------

    On a related note, I'm about 60% complete with my DIY 2013 Prius HG guide that contains all necessary steps and procedures to do the entire job yourself. Once it's complete I intend to upload it here along with the many photos I took of my journey into the engine, along with some things I would have done had I known/remembered to do them.
     
    Tombukt2 likes this.
  2. Tombukt2

    Tombukt2 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2020
    10,419
    1,807
    0
    Location:
    Durham NC
    Vehicle:
    2009 Prius
    Model:
    Base
    That's interesting We have a 2013 persona sitting here with the rattle that will go away if you step through it and exactly the mode you're talking about on the display while it's in Eco If you hit the red power mode the rattle is gone if I'm careful when I start the car up and step through it immediately when the ice engine is called upon whether I'm backing up or just sitting there and I step on the gas the router will never appear it'll appear more as a clunk because it tries to do it initially then it realizes intense of seconds that the throttle is depressed and the drive-by wire opens up the throttle and of course the idle goes up and there's no rattle so this afternoon maybe I will get to unplug the EGR valve and have a look kind of wild as EGR valve has about 60,000 on it and I've got one with 240,000 on it both of them look identical they're both clean don't see anything really going on there's none of the parts missing or broken like in some of the posts here whatever little piece that breaks off in there not happening here so far I hadn't seen this video yet so I can't wait to check this out We were thinking it's more in between right behind the cover that shows MG1 and two in the transmission or in that torque plate area but it seems really wishy-washy this theory The sound is right there though that's where the rattling is not in the engine it's not seemingly missing to me but I'm going to do this EGR test this evening that would be great if it was and I don't have to pull my transmission out because the engine is running good even when it rattles like that it doesn't seem in the freeze frame data that there's any missing happening there's this clanking and rattling noise but it doesn't seem that it's because of the miss or water entering the cylinder trying to put the fire out making everything very uneven and then whatever sensitive in the transmission as soon as that unevenness in the engine starts like with water EGR whatever then it makes something clank back around the transmission so if things aren't very well balanced power-wise electric motor wise I do believe there's things that can rattle around in the transmission when engine or electric motor output is compromised or not adequate or something.
     
  3. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2008
    24,930
    16,235
    0
    Location:
    Indiana, USA
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    Usually the first thing I think about with a symptom like that is the EGR passages in the manifold. You have some imbalance going on only when EGR is flowing (that is, at mid loads, not at idle and not at heavy load). So it would seem at first that the valve is doing what it's told, flowing at mid loads and not flowing at idle or high load, but when the EGR flows, an imbalance results. That often means the four manifold passages are not flowing in equal amounts.

    I'm taking your word for it that the manifold is all squeaky clean ... but I might be tempted to look there again, if it were happening to me.

    Does the rotor of your EGR valve have a rut?
     
    Mendel Leisk likes this.
  4. Bryan D

    Bryan D New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2024
    8
    4
    0
    Location:
    Washington
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    That's what I'm afraid of, uneven flow into the intake ports. Might need to take apart the intake tomorrow and shoot some distilled water through the EGR intake pipe to see how each passage flows.

    What do you mean by rut? I can take it apart here in a couple hours and post pictures here of the guts. Can't get to the EGR Valve itself without dropping some coolant and my neck says no go for that job today lol.
     
  5. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2008
    24,930
    16,235
    0
    Location:
    Indiana, USA
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    The EGR valve rotor can be inspected quickly without disturbing any coolant. The only trick is that the two cross-head screws can be stubborn and you can strip the heads; best way to avoid that is with a hand impact driver, the kind you hold in one hand and twist counterclockwise while you bop straight down on it lightly with a hammer. A few bops'll do it.

    The ski jump in this rotor has a rut worn through it:

    [​IMG]

    This one has a rut just starting:

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Bryan D

    Bryan D New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2024
    8
    4
    0
    Location:
    Washington
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    Looks like my account isn't old enough to post pics. No I do not see a rut.

    Here is the inside of my rotor. It's supposed to thread and unthread on that spring, correct? (I have more photos if needed.)

     
  7. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk EGR Fanatic

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    56,743
    39,255
    80
    Location:
    Greater Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Touring
    ^ Looks different than the pic in post #5, by @ChapmanF. Could it be a salvage EGR valve, and wrong model?

    Come to think of it, there was an EGR valve revision. Might be the reason.
     
  8. Bryan D

    Bryan D New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2024
    8
    4
    0
    Location:
    Washington
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    Far as I'm aware this is the stock EGR that came with the vehicle. Where are you seeing a difference in the images?

    Here are the remaining images. Keep in mind this EGR Valve was working flawlessly (to my knowledge) prior to doing my HG job. I just took it for a drive tonight and had my girlfriend monitor the EGR on the OBDII Scanner and it was performing as-intended as far as we could tell and the shuddering only picked up when the EGR Valve was open. The car drives crystal clear when the EGR is closed or unplugged.
     
  9. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2008
    24,930
    16,235
    0
    Location:
    Indiana, USA
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    The spring just sits inside loose. The rotor threads onto the central threaded shaft, the moving valve pintle.

    That ski-jump looks fine.
     
  10. Bryan D

    Bryan D New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2024
    8
    4
    0
    Location:
    Washington
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    So I was discussing the issue with a coworker and he had an idea that sort of threw me through an epiphany....

    Prior to doing my HG, the EGR had never been cleaned and it was incredibly plugged up upon removal, like you could pour water into it and watch it slowly drizzle out the other side after a couple minutes. Attempting to blow air through it was like trying to breathe through a coffee straw.

    Is there some kind of "learning" the computer needs to do to compensate for a cleaned EGR? Assuming the EGR Valve itself is working properly and all of the Cooler and Intake passages are clear (will confirm that later tonight), what if the computer is still programmed to run the EGR in it's previously clogged-state and it's overcompensating with exhaust gases?

    Might be overthinking it. Let me know what you think.
     
  11. CR94

    CR94 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2014
    2,642
    1,140
    0
    Location:
    Northwestern S.C.
    Vehicle:
    2011 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    That very possibility has been mentioned in previous threads. If it's your problem, I'd think it should clear up fairly soon, as soon as the computer realizes the clog is gone.
    Are you certain all the small egr passages through the manifold are clear? Unequal clogging of them is a common cause of the symptom you described.