Featured EVgo Limiting our Rights

sounds like a safety issue, no?

 

I think it is exactly moving where the industry needs to go. Towards standardization. If I finance a charging station, why should you be allowed to create risk for me when you plug in your home brewed charging adapter? If I were a lawyer representing the interests of the investors of the charging network I'd want this to rely on when you took my company to court. DId I destroy your charger, your battery, your car? Why should I have the expense of defending against those charges?

Now if EVgo were to set up a testing regime (and charge for overseeing the testing) and you were still another company that wanted to create, make and see and ultimately connect your customer to my network, I'd want that certification for my protection. But one-offs and home-brews ....

Car manufacturers are probably paying and certifying their charging adapters as a means of marketing their cars as able to connect to more charging stations. Why should I allow freeloaders and absorb risk?

 

Gas station owners have been accepting these risks for decades. They are generally, if not specifically, protected by the fact that they are accessible from public roadways. Access to such roadways is regulated by each state, typically requiring registration (a restrictive procedure that not all homebuilts will clear) and sometimes requiring inspection. There are homebuilt and hand-modified cars out on the road, and safely purchasing fuel.

Why can't there be homebuilt and hand-modified electric cars out there, and recharging from any compatible retail supply?

 

If they wanted to do it right, they should have required that chargers and cables need to be built to a published standard. The requirement that for "automaker-manufactured charging adapters" , by itself, does nothing to make things safer since the "automaker" may or may not do things correctly. There is also the very real possibility that the OEM charging adapter is made by a third party in the first place.

Makes me glad that I don't use their charging stations.

Dan

 

or .... a liability exculpation clause .... so if your crappy Homebrew charging system fries the homebrew car (most likely the software handshake never completes) ... the car builder will have no recourse because they were violating the TOU.
On a more positive note, using our J1772 to Tesla adapter lets us use tesla's HPWC (high power wall charger) network. The HPWC's are typically set up to provide around 10kWs .... a far cry from the all-too-often 208V's - running closer to 205V - 5kW's of many Chargepoints. Although the adapters are safe (& expensive), the manufacturers of adapters aren't obliged to seek Good Housekeeping or URL cert's - so .... many of the good & bad adapter manufacturers don't bother.
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It isn't the same as with a gas station and modified car. There isn't the risk there of damaging the pump by just putting the nozzle in the car. The person also needs to be present as the fuel is pumping. Fuel starts spilling because the car's fill tube was modified, and someone shuts it off before it becomes a big issue. A plug in isn't attended, and no one may notice a problem until the car is fully in flames.

There is a third party CCS adapter available for Teslas. In the couple videos I've seen, it doesn't work to well. EVgo may have already had to repair chargers because of it.

If the certification process included thorough testing of the charging system, homebuilt and modified shouldn't be a problem. But what inspection is involved for a gasoline fuel fill system? There is one, and the cap isn't loose? The system for electricity is a bit more complicated, and what might cause problems, like improper wiring, isn't readily visible, and could pass a short test charge.

A home built ICE car could catch fire due to something done wrong in the fuel system. Since the car is suppose to be shut off while fueling, this isn't likely to happen at the pump. An improper filler tube could lead to some spilled gas while filling, but that doesn't automatically mean fire. Spilled electricity does when the leaky spots are hidden.

 

I think if there were more problems, there would be more demand for inspection of fuel filling systems. I accept that connecting a charger is a different sort of action with different potential risks. So far, it sounds to me like homebuilts maybe ought to pass some kind of inspection or code conformance test to use public charging- that seems pretty reasonable to me.

To disallow the homebuilts altogether would be wrong.

 

GM will have crate motors, but I haven't heard of anyone offering a crate charging system. Nor any certification method for home built. Until such are available, EVgo has to act based on conditions now.

Honestly, I think this is mostly about charging adapters made by a " fly-by-night" company on the very cheap disabling their equipment. Safety features in the charger should prevent damage, but do the failsafes reset themselves, or does the next customer have to go through the hassle of calling up EVgo to reset them?

 

fortunately, if you or i build a toaster & never seek the UL seal of approval .... the toaster police will never come & drop a net over us. Toaster police ..... more gv'mt .... that's all we need.
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They will here. Unauthorised electrical work will (if it hasn't already killed you) attract large fines. Read about one this week $42,000 for not using a licenced contractor!!! And if injury/death occurs, I believe up to $½ million.

Back to the "home made EV" - I wouldn't like a mate who made his own EV come to my home and "woops, I'm out of power, can I plug it" - I think I'd be saying "no" if he hasn't had it checked and tagged. Last I want is for his outfit to send a surge/short-circuit and fry my Inverter, Digital Organ etc.

 

Home built EVs have started house fires here.

 

Yes, I've read of some. It's interesting - try GOOGLING/BINGing something like "Build your own EV/Electric vehicle. No shortage of responses there - so it could be a temptation.

But when you look at the current draw from even a PHEV, it's often the biggest draw in a home unless you're welding etc.

PHEVs & EVs and the matching chargers they come with have stringent safety/load & temperature limiting mechanisms to ensure they're not going to fry your switchboard (or barbeque your house).

 

Most of the DIY projects were because of a lack of any BEV being for sale. Which is why I think this is mostly about third party adapters for Teslas.

I do wonder where this leaves professional EV conversions, like Zelectric. EVgo's email does specifically state home built and modified, but the author may have been unaware of professional businesses doing it.

 

Yep - and there is the Modification market.

For the last 50+ years that I've been aware of, guys (and gals) have been buying cars, and modifying them - sometimes beyond recognition.

There are still red-blooded blokes out there who, given an EV, won't fiddle with it - with the exception of hot cams, multi carbs and exhaust modifications. But - given the chance - they'll do it. Not quite sure what they'll do - but they'll do it!! Aftermarket tuners will be looking on with anticipation.

 

But if you home build a toaster and something goes terribly wrong you will still probably make a lot of toast


Mike

 

The drafting may be sloppy, but the rules strike me as reasonable.

Besides the practical problems @Trollbait mentioned, I imagine EVgo sees this as a liability issue: if they don’t adequately control their customers’ activities, and there is an electrical fire or someone is shocked, EVgo could be liable. If the cause is a home-built car or a charging adapter from an untraceable offshore factory, EVgo and its insurers might have the deepest pockets, which is never a comfortable feeling.

Exactly so: a century of progress in gasoline dispensing equipment, decades of regulation of evaporative emissions (and thus also flammable vapors), and the low numbers of unsafe vehicles have kept fire losses to a consistently acceptable level, making the risk insurable. Service stations do, however, regulate the use of portable containers; see, for example, California Fire Code (International Fire Code 2018) section 2304.4.

I assume Chevrolet’s upcoming eCrate package will include a charging inlet.

As far as U.S. regulations are concerned, I’d certify the safety of an EV made in my garage in the same way Toyota does for a Prius Prime made at Tsutsumi Plant: by reading 49 CFR 567 carefully and then affixing a label self-certifying that “THIS VEHICLE CONFORMS TO ALL APPLICABLE FEDERAL MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY, BUMPER, AND THEFT PREVENTION STANDARDS.” There’s no requirement to prove to any government or private agency that the vehicle meets those standards—but NHTSA and the states can take enforcement action if it doesn’t.

There are charging-related requirements in FMVSS No. 305, Electric-powered vehicles: electrolyte spillage and electrical shock protection, and in industry consensus standards, such as SAE J2344 and the SAE J2953 series, and responsible manufacturers do extensive in-house testing, but I don’t know of any legal requirement to obtain a third-party listing, approval, or certification, as the National Electrical Code requires for electrical equipment generally. (Automobiles aren’t covered by the NEC, per section 90.2(B)(1), and they couldn’t be, since state or local regulation would be preempted under 49 U.S.C. § 30103(b).)

 

OK, here is the deal. Create a competitive fast DC charging network and run EVgo out of business.

Bob Wilson

 

intetestingly - i wonder what percent above 99% of appliances meeting UL standards - likely start fires - historically

with their higher prices, they are doing a decent attempt at running their self out of business already.

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