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EU set to demand e-fuel cars have no climate impact

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by Trollbait, Sep 25, 2023.

  1. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    #1 Trollbait, Sep 25, 2023
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  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    good for them, i hope we follow suit
     
    #2 bisco, Sep 25, 2023
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  3. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Indeed, paying 3x to 5x more for fuel will glue and nail the gas coffin shut.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #3 bwilson4web, Sep 25, 2023
  4. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    Okay thats going to be an interesting engineering challenge. An efficient engine that can run on a yet-to-be-developed e-fuel but won't run on natural petroleum fuel.

    I'd expect they'll have to hinge it on a natural chemical or physical property, because it would be too easy to defeat any sort of onboard fuel audit system.
     
    #4 Leadfoot J. McCoalroller, Sep 25, 2023
  5. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Fuels have already been developed. Porsche has a small plant running right now, and their partner has plans to expand in Texas. It and others are mostly of the methane>methanol>gasoline replacement variety.

    Can't run on petroleum fuel would be simple if they stop at methanol. Otherwise, the entire point was to have a carbon neutral fuel that was a drop in replacement for existing cars. Don't think it will be simple to have a efuel only car tell them apart. Maybe a sulfur detector, though it is really low in current gasoline now.
     
    #5 Trollbait, Sep 25, 2023
  6. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    I'm aware that there are e-fuels already being produced by Porsche and others. But I thought the Porsche fuels were for classic cars which obviously already run fine on petroleum.

    I guess I assumed they'd have to come up with a new formulation for a new class of engines with different physical properties to prevent petroleum usage.

    The way I see it, a plan to use an onboard fuel audit system is just a wink and nod to the buyer. "Sure, this system won't let you use regular gas*"

    *until you buy the $200 circumvention widget on ebay
    ...that will be down to $30 a year later
     
    #6 Leadfoot J. McCoalroller, Sep 25, 2023
  7. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Methanol and the less toxic ethanol have high octane ratings. So mandate high compression ratio engines and the problem is solved.

    Trying to run lower octane petro will knock so bad as to be unusable especially if the engine control laws require a working knock sensor and/or the head bolts are required to be mechanical fuses. Sure, a few skilled drivers could dilute the alcohol with a little cheap petro and 'tickle the dragon.' Once is fun but beyond that it becomes a pain.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #7 bwilson4web, Sep 25, 2023
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2023
  8. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    And also for current cars once petro based fuels are banned.

    Honestly, this requirement for 2035+ efuel cars not start on petro based fuels is appeasement for purists, that will end up hindering carbon emission reduction. If efuel production is high enough to support a fleet of these cars, it is high enough to mandate blending it with petro stocks in ever increasing ratios until the pump gas for everything is 100% efuel.

    Regular gas in Europe is equivalent to midgrade or premium in the US, with their premium being 100 RON. The octane spread alone isn't enough. Now, alcohol sensors have been for flexfuel cars have been around for decades. Having the car disable starting if less then 95% is detected wouldn't be a hard lift.

    I suspect they'll end up with something along those lines if the efuel is a direct gasoline replacement. Retail petro supplies will be spiked with some easy to detect compound to prevent its use with an efuel car. That will also work with diesels.
     
    #8 Trollbait, Sep 25, 2023
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