1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

ethanol in my Prius' future?

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Technical Discussion' started by Bob Allen, Jan 25, 2007.

  1. Bob Allen

    Bob Allen Captainbaba

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2004
    1,273
    11
    0
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    On "To The Point" this morning, the topic was ethanol. Looks like serious, interesting and hopeful developments in ethanol fuels. The program dispelled some misconceptions I had, namely, that ethanol is more energy intensive in its production than it gives back in useful performance. Apparently, this is true for corn based ethanol produced using power from coal fired powerplants, but not true for closed cycle production where the energy source for production is part of the cycle. One plant is using cow manure as an energy source, which solves several problems up front: water pollution (70% of which is caused by manure) and greenhouse gas reduction. While corn ethanol is only marginally better for the environment than gasoline, other ethanol sources and production methods promise genuinely green alternatives. Hope we don't end up flooding the market with corn ethanol, thus blocking or limiting the development, production and introduction of more environmentally friendly ethanol, before the demand for ethanol reaches the point where there will be need for as much as we can produce.

    So, my question, which has come up several times but presented here for possible discussion in light of our leadless feeler's germane comments on alternative energy, is: will we be able to modify our cars to run on concentrations of ethanol higher than the 10% that shows up every winter? Or will we need to replace our conventional ICE engines if we want to burn a renewable fuel? One advantage the TDI crowd has over us is that they can switch readily from bio to petro fuel as the need arises and availability makes possible.

    What about Prii sold in Brazil? Does Toyota make a modified engine for that market or is the modification (if any) done in Brazil?

    Bob
     
    #1 Bob Allen, Jan 25, 2007
  2. seasalsa

    seasalsa Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2004
    1,278
    20
    0
    Location:
    Kent, WA
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    II
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bob Allen @ Jan 25 2007, 12:46 PM) [snapback]380764[/snapback]</div>
    According to http://www.globalautoindex.com/maker.plt?no=1295 The Prius is not sold in Brazil.
     
    #2 seasalsa, Jan 25, 2007
  3. Pinto Girl

    Pinto Girl New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2006
    3,093
    350
    0
    Location:
    California
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bob Allen @ Jan 25 2007, 03:46 PM) [snapback]380764[/snapback]</div>
    I'm no expert...but seems to me that cows are, themselves, not very efficient.

    Do you have any idea how many gallons of water and pounds of fertilizer (not to mention, the energy involved) it takes to produce a single pound of meat for human consumption?

    The only reason there are so many cows is that we subsidize, heavily, meat production...now we're going to figure out a use for their manure...?

    This is backwards; this sort of logic makes sense only to the agribusiness lobby.
     
    #3 Pinto Girl, Jan 25, 2007
  4. Bob Allen

    Bob Allen Captainbaba

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2004
    1,273
    11
    0
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Jan 26 2007, 05:50 AM) [snapback]380819[/snapback]</div>
    I became a vegetarian in 1974 in part because of what I saw as a horrendous waste of resources in the production of meat....and, of course, the incredible cruelty inflicted on animals to supply the meat lust in this country. That said, we're not likely to get rid of cows anytime soon, so if we can devise a way to put their s**t to use, so to speak, in both reducing their impact on the environment and in lowering greenhouse gases, then I'm all for it. Sometimes you need to find ways of making purses out of sow's ears as they say.
    B
     
    #4 Bob Allen, Jan 25, 2007
  5. Duffer

    Duffer Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2007
    271
    15
    0
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius
    Model:
    Four
    What if there was a wind-electric farm near the ethanol plant? A joint venture?
     
    #5 Duffer, Jan 26, 2007
  6. kb0ou

    kb0ou Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2006
    41
    33
    0
    I think that if you were to check that the cows are milk cows, it is a dairy operation where most of the manure is coming from, not a beef feeding lot. Meat comes from steers not cows, milk comes from cows.

    the cows eat what is left over from the corn process to make alcohol, the waste from the cows produces heat to run the process, kind of a win win situation.

    GOT MILK? :rolleyes:
     
    #6 kb0ou, Jan 26, 2007
  7. David Beale

    David Beale Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2006
    5,963
    1,985
    0
    Location:
    Edmonton Alberta
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius
    There is an excellent article in Scientific American January 2007 on ethanol. Many of the points the OP brings up were presented. The author is a little negative on ethanol, perhaps for good reason. However he states repeatedly that ethanol will become practical once the technical hurdles are overcome such that it can be produced from cellulose.

    The real question we have to ask is, however "wasteful" ethanol production will be, is it any more wasteful than production of crude oil and subsequent distillation/conversion of that to gasoline?

    As far as "bio-diesel", so far I've heard it tends to clog up engines if used in higher %s as fuel. I'm sure this problem will be solved soon enough.

    As far as whether the Prius engine could use ethanol, I see no reason why not. It would require Toyota to do the work to enable the engine fuel system to be fully compatible with it, both in burning it and in storage and transport from the fuel tank to the combustion chambers (correct fuel mix, resistant seals, etc.). The first thing I'd worry about is the fuel tank bladder - will it harden and crack holding high % ethanol over long time intervals?

    As it sits now, the Prius can't use even E85 safely. Perhaps the next version will. E10 fuel is now the norm all year round (caused by govt trying to get rid of the toxic results of using the two or three alternatives). E85 is not very common outside of the mid-west. I've never seen it here in the far west, and this is farming as well as oil country in Alberta. So anyone wanting to use it and not living in the US mid-west will have to wait anyway.
     
    #7 David Beale, Jan 26, 2007
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)