Ethanol fuel appropriate for Prius?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BetRae @ Oct 15 2007, 07:53 PM) [snapback]526096[/snapback]</div>

You should have no problem using E10 gasoline. The manual (page 321, for my '07) reads:

"Toyota allows the use of oxygenate blended gasolne where the oxygenate content is up to 10% ethanol or 15% MTBE. If you use gasohol in your Toyota, be sure that it has an octane rating no lower than 87."

Hope this helps. Enjoy your Prius!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BetRae @ Oct 16 2007, 10:23 AM) [snapback]526096[/snapback]</div>

I use E10 in mine, I found this on an Australian site
Toyota All Toyota models manufactured locally or imported by Toyota Australia since 1987 will operate satisfactorily on E10 fuel except as listed below. The following models will not operate satisfactorily on E10 fuel due to material compatibility issues: Camry with carburettor engines pre July 1989 and Corolla pre July 1994. Supra - pre May 1993, Cressida - pre Feb 1993, Paseo - pre Aug 1995, Starlet - pre July 1999. Land Cruiser - pre Aug 1992, Coaster - pre Jan 1993, Dyna - pre May 1995, Tarago - pre Oct 1996, Hilux , Hiace, & 4 Runner - pre Aug 1997, Townace - pre Dec 1998.
from http://www.abc.net.au/brisbane/stories/s1466787.htm

And this on Toyota Australia's site
Maintenance - Service - Toyota Australia
... E10) For vehicles manufactured or imported by Toyota Australia: TOYOTA (Passenger Models)Locally produced Toyota models will operate satisfactorily on petrol fuel blended with 10% ethanol (E10) from ... will operate on petrol fuel blended with 10% ethanol (E10), except older models: " Supra " Cressida " Paseo " Starlet (Note: E10 not recommended due to incompatiibility of material)Enthanol blend ... vehicles imported by Toyota Australia will operated on petrol fuel blended with 10% ethanol (E10), except models fitted with a carburettor as listed: " Coaster Bus: pre Jan 1993 (carburettor engine ... pre Dec 1998 (carburettor engine) " LandCruiser: pre Aug 1992 (carburettor & EFI engine) (Note: E10 not recommended due to incompatibility of material) Enthanol blend greater than 10 % is not approved ...
http://yaris.toyota.com.au/Accessories/acc...88_1314,00.html

 

I wonder what else the dealer was wrong about.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BetRae @ Oct 15 2007, 07:53 PM) [snapback]526096[/snapback]</div>

I have already used 310 gallons of ethanol in my two Prius. What's there to be concerned about?

In other words, E10 is the only fuel available in Minnesota and it's been that way for a very looooong time.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Oct 15 2007, 08:42 PM) [snapback]526119[/snapback]</div>

E10 is all we have available in Illinois, as well (at least in Northern Illinois). Is it possible there are stations selling E10 with octane ratings below 87?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BetRae @ Oct 15 2007, 07:53 PM) [snapback]526096[/snapback]</div>

Check the owners manual for the 2005. If it says unleaded only, use that. If it says 10% ethanol OK, then you're OK. You can't go by what the manuals for the 2006, 2007 or 2008 say.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(richard schumacher @ Oct 15 2007, 06:25 PM) [snapback]526109[/snapback]</div>

Most dealers will be wrong about nearly everything they tell you with regard to the Prius.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Oct 15 2007, 07:07 PM) [snapback]526155[/snapback]</div>

From the 2005 manual (for a package 9 / BC, bought in California, page 205):

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Oct 15 2007, 10:07 PM) [snapback]526155[/snapback]</div>

Good catch, Godiva. It always is going to be a bit more prudent to look at the manual for your specific model and year.

All the same, I've found that this whole question was hashed through last year for the 2005 model. Both John1701a and Tideland found that E10 was just fine for the 2005 Prius. I don't have that year's manual, but Tideland quoted from his. The language is the same as what appears in my 2007 manual.

Here is a link to his posting on Nov 20, 2006.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BetRae @ Oct 15 2007, 06:53 PM) [snapback]526096[/snapback]</div>

It is safe for my 04, but it isn't worth it. My car lost 4mpg on average per tank. After doing some cursory math with mileage, gallons pumped and total price, I found that it cost more to buy the 10% ethanol with a cost difference of only 10 cents. Why get a lower MPG and pay the same or more? In central Illinois it still is possible to find ethanol free gas stations and I only use those. Here in Utah it isn't a problem, but I still look so that I don't get ethanol.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(smithBYU @ Oct 15 2007, 11:05 PM) [snapback]526182[/snapback]</div>

More likely, it was the introduction of an alcohol cleaning out your system.

My number-crunching puts it around a 1.7 MPG drop with extended use.

 

Funny thing is my 1990 Camry actually had lower consumption on E10 than standard unleaded. I have never used anything but E10 in the Prius.

 

I use "up to 10% ethanol" fuel whenever I can. So far, I haven't seen a difference in mileage, so it's small enough to be buried in the "noise" of normal variations. I'm sure it's there, as ethyl alcohol has 65% of the energy of "pure" or "normal" gasoline. So adding 10% should drop the energy something like 6.5%, and hence the fuel economy as well, though it may not drop by that % as there are other factors involved.

What the ethanol does do is burn cleaner in the engine, and even clean the engine if it is dirty (carbon/soot deposits). These days the carbon/soot buildup is caused by toluene added to poor gasoline base stock to up the octane rating.

Ethanol also ups the octane rating of the fuel. I think you would be hard pressed to find E10 with an octane rating of less than 87. Around here Husky/Mohawk has discontinued their "plain" regular gas and only supplies "up to 10% ethanol" 90 octane regular, "up to 10% ethanol" 92 octane midgrade, and "up to 10% ethanol" 94 octane premium fuel. All at the same prices other stations charge for non-ethanol fuel with lower octane ratings (two points lower for each grade). The Prius doesn't need fuel with a rating higher than 87 (or 85 in the mountains), but whatever.

I like the cleaner burning fuel.

Now, don't try to use E85 in the Prius. It will cause damage to several parts. Last weeks Motorweek had a very good "Gosses Garage" session showing the parts that GM change in their "flexfuel" vehicles. It even includes the engine heads, along with the fuel tank, fuel pump, fuel rails, sensors, a module to sense what fuel is being burned, etc, etc!
While a few on these forums have/are using E85 "with no problems", I wouldn't want to be in their shoes a year or two down the road, when all that stuff starts to fail!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(David Beale @ Oct 16 2007, 10:58 AM) [snapback]526342[/snapback]</div>

I always use E10 in my Prius - and consistantly get over 50 MPG with mostly highway driving - this is no big sacrifice as I see it for a cleaning burning and renewable fuel.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(David Beale @ Oct 16 2007, 09:58 AM) [snapback]526342[/snapback]</div>

Math Question: Wouldn't E10 containing 10% ethanol that has 65% of the BTUs of regular unleaded gas give you 97% (96.5%) of the BTUs of regular unleaded gasoline? This 3% energy drop doesn't seem so bad. Perhaps it translates to more than a 3% drop in mileage, but I don't think so.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(David Beale @ Oct 16 2007, 09:58 AM) [snapback]526342[/snapback]</div>

Ugh! I wasn't aware of this. I didn't know that toluene was an additive to boost octane. I suppose it is better than adding benzene, but not by much (at least in terms of health exposure). If an octane boost can be accomplished by adding ethanol as opposed to toluene, give me that corn sauce!

 

A while back there was a thread on Ethanol-based fuels where E10 and E85 were discussed. I admitted that I've used both fuels in my Prius. It created quite a furor. Just thought I'd report back so the naysayers can see that up to this point, nothing bad has happened. My car is a 2006--I've had it for 21 months now with about 18,000 miles accumulated thusfar. I've used both E85 and E10 as well as 87 octane pure dino fuel. The car does get a bit lower mileage with the E85, though still mid to upper 40s. I alternate my fuel use because I never am at the same filling station when I need a fueling so there have not been two consecutive tanks of E85. I was warned that I would see "Check Engine" light which at the point of my last posting I hadn't seen. I have since seen three check engine lights which go away when I fill up with regular gasoline. The dealership has not said anything to me for the three oil changes I've had thusfar. I am happy that I can utilize a variety of fueling options--it provides economic stimulus (albeit in a small way) for development of alternative fuels and alternative ICE fuel technology. Recently progress has been made in cellulose fermentation to produce ethanol, which is much better than using corn (feed). It would be nice to see comments that add light to the discussion rather than the heat and invectives that were present in the thread some months back. I hesitated to post this comment because some folks seem very quick to jump down other's throats on here when they happen to disagree, but I figured I'd give it another shot. I've learned a lot on here about the car and hope that that can continue. I think Prius is a decent vehicle and hope to keep it up to my 100,000 mile limit.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(David Beale @ Oct 16 2007, 10:58 AM) [snapback]526342[/snapback]</div>

 

Hi All,

With the added fuel energy in the production of Ethanol in the US near zero (yes zero!), E85 is actually an energy carrier, not a fuel. Energy put into the Ethanol fluid during distillation is coming from Coal and Natural Gas at the smaller plants. Some plants are gearing up to use bio-gas by colocating with feed lots. Others are aiming to use geothermal (out near Yellowstone Park). But I have not heard that this is actually up and working anywhere yet.

So, any claim that Ethanol is a CO2 neutral fuel are completely false. There is not allot of difference between Ethanol fuel and Syn fuel made from coal in this regard, except that food stock prices are going up, and cows get to eat something that is better for them (corn is a bad diet for cow digestion).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Macomb @ Oct 16 2007, 04:24 PM) [snapback]526541[/snapback]</div>

And it will continue working fine until the E85 finally eats through a seal or hose somewhere in the fuel system. Please be sure to post the cost of repair after that happens.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(donee @ Oct 16 2007, 05:28 PM) [snapback]526595[/snapback]</div>

What you say is true -for now-. But if we don't bother to mess (learn) with ethyl alcohol it will never happen, and we will be stuck in the same rut to oblivion we are currently in. I think the slight extra cost to make the shift to ethanol, whether E10, E85, or something else, is worth it in the long run. In fact, the learning has already had a large effect. Ethyl alcohol plants are being collocated with refineries, now that the technology of burning it in engines has been proven. Rail lines bring in the corn or other feed stocks to minimize the burning of fossil fuels for transportation, and new pipelines are being planned to carry the alcohol to refineries that may not be economical to move.

At any rate, dissing alcohol as an environmental fuel for vehicles is rather short sighted. ANY vehicle is very hard on the environment. Even the often talked up but never to be built GM EV! Building any of them produces a lot of CO2 and many other pollutants. The same kind of questioning is being raised against H2 as a fuel. Because it currently costs more in energy to make H2 than it can save. But that too will change in the future.