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Environmental group takes on Toyota.

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Areometer, Oct 24, 2005.

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  1. Areometer

    Areometer Silver Business Sponsor

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    Environmental group questions Toyota's efficiency and record

    By SARAH A. WEBSTER

    Detroit Free Press

    "Is Toyota a wolf in sheep's clothing?"

    That's the suggestion of a stinging national ad campaign against Toyota Motor Corp., launched today by a San Francisco-based environmental group. The ad is to run in Mother Jones online today and be printed soon in full-page ads in the New York Times and other publications.

    Created by the Bluewater Network, a nonprofit organization that fights for clean air and water, the ads against Toyota are thought to be the first ever to attack a Japanese automaker on its environmental record in the United States.

    Bluewater says Toyota's hybrids aren't as efficient as their nonhybrid versions and questions why the automaker is fighting tougher standards on fuel economy and emissions. They also note that while Toyota's overall fuel economy is the best in the industry, it is worse than it was 20 years ago, according to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.

    >> Read More @ The Seattle Times
     
    #1 Areometer, Oct 24, 2005
  2. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    jeez. Nothing else better to do eh? Seriously now, then shouldn't they be nagging on GM for keeping the Hummer alive?

    Aren't their vehicles near or at the top of the fuel economy list for their respective classes?

    I agree their full size SUVs aren't exactly the best of fuel economy (in absolute terms) and that's probably why Toyota's killing off the LC. Besides, isn't Honda the one keeping the Insight for CAFE purposes? ;).

    As a company, you gotta target the market that's the fastest growing or the most popular. Five years ago, it was the full size pickup and midsize to full size SUV markets. The Sequoia hasn't even been remodelled yet so you can't blame them for having it around.
     
    #2 Tideland Prius, Oct 24, 2005
  3. tumbleweed

    tumbleweed Senior Member

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    Maybe there being paid by General Motors?
     
    #3 tumbleweed, Oct 24, 2005
  4. Jonnycat26

    Jonnycat26 New Member

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    Maybe they're right.

    I mean, Toyota sells tons of guzzlers. 4Runners, Sequoias, and so on. Their entire new line of Scions are all pretty poor on emissions tests. And Toyota's future plans for hybrids include a Lexus monstrosity that has the "Power a V12 with the economy of a V8". Wow. Color me not impressed.
     
    #4 Jonnycat26, Oct 24, 2005
  5. unique2006

    unique2006 Junior Member

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    GM or The big oil companies :p
     
    #5 unique2006, Oct 24, 2005
  6. eak354

    eak354 Member

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    indeed.... why just focus on toyota? doh! their smear campaign is so obvious. i wonder who's contributed to their cause... hmmmmm <_<
     
    #6 eak354, Oct 24, 2005
  7. 2Hybrids

    2Hybrids New Member

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    I'm sure Toyota's not the most innocent of large corporations....but there are so many more obvioiusly evil entities that could/should be investigated.

    They should go after those that have made no attempt whatsoever of doing anything good for the earth.

    I don't believe the "non-profit" thing....someone is definately profiting from that smear. <_<
     
    #7 2Hybrids, Oct 24, 2005
  8. wstander

    wstander New Member

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    'Mother Jones' is about as anti-progress and industry as one can get without being an entire Luddite.

    They are sniping at Toyota due to Toyota's success; the hate success, corporations, and anything more modern that a sandal.

    can you say 'original socialists'?

    It is of not that it is reported in the Detroit papers, though....
     
    #8 wstander, Oct 24, 2005
  9. maggieddd

    maggieddd Senior Member

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    The article failed to compare the actual mpg that the Highlander gets to the actual mpg of a hybrid Highlander. It compared EPA numbers of the conventional Highlander to the real mpg the hybrid model gets.
     
    #9 maggieddd, Oct 24, 2005
  10. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    Ugly spin attacking the wrong people.

    1)"Worse average mpg than 20 years ago."--Absolutely....20 years ago Toyota didn't produce any SUVs or full-size P/U trucks. Those vehicles are high profit high demand vehicles. If we want Toyota to stay in business long enough and profitably enough to have excess funds to produce a vehicle like the Prius and then move to include hybrids throughout their line-up they're going to have to be able to compete. Compare apples to apples...does today's Corolla get better or worse mpg than the corolla of 10 or 20 years ago?

    2)"Two new hybrids that get no better mpg than their conventional counterparts." First, that's not true, they both get better mpg, albeit marginally. The point here is you're again comparing apples to oranges. The hybrids have more power, torque, and acceleration than their 'conventional counterparts' and still yeild as good as or better mileage. There are people that will only buy a car with XXX HP and X.X 0-60 time and that will tow a minimum of XXXX lbs. If the 'conventional counterpart' isn't capable they're just going to buy someone else's gas guzzler that does meet their 'needs'. If Toyota can produce the vehicle that meets those 'needs' as a hybrid that gets equivalent mpg that the conventional vehicle that didn't then we've still, on the whole, done a good thing. We can't force everyone do drive an Insight so it's better to build a better vehicle that people will buy rather than force them into buying a guzzler/polluter b/c they have not other option.

    3)I don't know enough about the politics of the 'fighting congress' thing to comment on that, but I suspect that there's a lot more to it than what Blue Water's ad suggests.
     
    #10 efusco, Oct 24, 2005
  11. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    I went to the Blue Water site and sent the following message to Toyota via their 'auto mailer' at http://www.bluewaternetwork.org/telltoyota/index.shtml

    As a Prius owner/driver I want to applaud you and your company's efforts to promote hybrid technology in all it's various and sundry forms. For producing vehicles that meet the needs of all drivers, not just a few.

    I wish you to ignore the ignorant drivel of the "Blue Water" group. I want you to continue your efforts to affect change through producing superior products realizing that full acceptance of hybrids and other alternative fuel technology will be slow.

    I realize you must stay competative in a tough market by producing SUVs and Pick-ups that are not as fuel efficient and environmentally friendly as some other cars in the line-up.

    Since the subject line was forced upon me by the Blue Water site I will say that I do hope you continue to improve the overall mileage of Toyota's line-up...I'm looking forward to purchasing a 70mpg mid-size Prius in a few years!!
     
    #11 efusco, Oct 24, 2005
  12. maggieddd

    maggieddd Senior Member

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    great Evan! Is there a way to also email Blue Water?
     
    #12 maggieddd, Oct 24, 2005
  13. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    [email protected]
     
    #13 efusco, Oct 24, 2005
  14. flareak

    flareak Fleet Captain

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    they look pretty dumb when all they talk about is mpg and global warming. nothing about other pollutants
     
    #14 flareak, Oct 24, 2005
  15. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    well i think the campaign is justified (ducking under desk...waiting for fallout to subside)

    whew!!... ok a bit of clarification may be in order...

    nearly everything they said is true of every car company. the mileage has been common knowledge for YEARS

    the reason i said its justified is most of these types of groups go after who they preceive to be the biggest offenders. imm, they mention hybrids only to pad their bullet points. the ONLY reason they are targeting Toyota is because they are acknowledging that Toyota is now the leader in the auto industry surplanting gm.

    like virus writers who go after Microsoft, to make the biggest wave, you must throw stones into the biggest pond. although on paper, gm still has more water, its dam has washed away and most predict it will be a desert soon.

    Toyota seems to be capturing all of gm's water and these people know it. no sense in beating up a comatose dog... go for the big guys instead, and that is Toyota.
     
    #15 DaveinOlyWA, Oct 24, 2005
  16. Jonnycat26

    Jonnycat26 New Member

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    Even Honda's worst car averages ~20mpg. You can't say that about Toyota, with the sparkling 14.5mpg for the LC and 16.5 for the Sequoia (2WD even). Honda has that 'greenest' title for a reason. :)
     
    #16 Jonnycat26, Oct 24, 2005
  17. LaughingMan

    LaughingMan Active Member

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    Toyota sells a ton of guzzlers, but the point is that even that article, and all of these organizations concede that Toyota's overall fuel economy leads the industry.

    I'm not too happy about the emissions of their other cars, Scion for one... but this group better not be singling out Toyota among all of the other car makers who do much worse than Toyota. Doesn't it make more sense to attack the worse offenders first?

    The answer is no because it's gotten out of style to bust on American car companies... everybody know they suck...now the trend among is to "debunk" Toyota.

    I'm all for looking to toyota to improve, but to single them out is unfair... I'd better read that this same group is ragging on GM twice as hard.
     
    #17 LaughingMan, Oct 24, 2005
  18. LaughingMan

    LaughingMan Active Member

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    The Honda Pilot gets 17/22... average of 19.

    Honda isn't in the business of making larger trucks or SUVs (bigger than the Pilot anyway)... that's one of the reasons why they're so green...
     
    #18 LaughingMan, Oct 24, 2005
  19. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    That's because Honda doesn't have a freaking V8. Honda Ridgeline with the 3.5 litre V6 gets 16mpg in the city. So 16 for a V8 Sequoia ain't that bad. You can't technically nag on the LC (you can for the Sequoia) since the LC has been around for decades. It's like telling Land Rover that they suck for having the Range Rover. Ya well, it came out in the 70s not last year.

    So I suppose you hate all those companies with gas guzzling V12s eh? BMW 750iL, S600, 575 Maranello. What's your point? First people complain hybrids are slow so Toyota gives them 268hp. Now people say that's too much and fuel economy sucks. Ya well, make up your damn mind! It's already better than a 302hp ML500. That thing averaged 8mpg on a test course (yes, that's with full throttle acceleration and hard braking). EIGHT! Do that with a HiHy and the only way to get 8 is to let the engine idle til it runs dry lol.
     
    #19 Tideland Prius, Oct 24, 2005
  20. JackDodge

    JackDodge Gold Member

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    No good deed goes unpunished, I guess. Criticizing the only car company who really is leading the way in PZEV makes me think that they work for the American auto companies in one way or another. I wonder if they're also praising Ford for its feeble attempts at gas conservation. They're based in San Francisco so they probably can't get good mileage no matter which car they drive.
     
    #20 JackDodge, Oct 24, 2005
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