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Drilling, Biodiesel, Ethanol, and Hybrids

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by john1701a, Mar 16, 2005.

  1. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Oil hit a record high: $56.46 per barrel. That's pretty nasty. I wasn't even expecting the problems to start so soon. (Of course, I didn't expect us to invade & occupy a major supplier either.)

    We all know that the drilling in ANWR won't actually help the situation. Having to wait 10 years for so little oil (especially with the population growing and road congestion rapidly getting worse) will basically only delay the inevitable. It certainly won't reduce the need. And it completely ignores the pollution the consumption of that oil will cause.

    So who exactly wants biodiesel (a local grown alternative for diesel)? The well-informed know that it actually increases NOx (smog) emissions, which is the opposite of what we want to do. And it is requires additives (that obviously increase the cost) to keep it from turning to gel in the winter. Efforts to require biodiesel are pushing B2. That's just a 2 percent mix with 98 percent diesel. With such a minor amount, what's the point?

    E10, that's 10 percent ethanol (a local grown alternative for gas) mix with 90 percent gas is proving quite successful in Minnesota... so much so that E20 is now being discussed as realistic. In other words, that effort paves the way expanded use of E10 in other states. It also raises the question of which vehicles are capable of using E20. Most automakers simply mention that E10 works just fine in their vehicles, but don't state anywhere how high the mix can actually be. Is E20 realistic?

    Lastly, why the heck are hybrids being completely ignored? With all the discussion for energy solutions lately, why isn't reducing our consumption mentioned? It is really starting to look like the the famous "we got our butts kicked in the 70's" situation is going to pale in comparison to what's happening now. Rather than scrambling to catch up, they're still in denial. With GM rapidly losing marketshare and ongoing losses being reported, they stand no chance of remaining a leader. Ford is in deep financial trouble (again). They stand a good chance of surviving (again) if they take advantage of their "full" hybrid design. But their executives just don't seem to be all that interested. And Daimler-Chrysler appears to be clueless.

    So... what can we anticipated happening in the coming year?
     
    #1 john1701a, Mar 16, 2005
  2. Tempus

    Tempus Senior Member

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    $57.21 a barrel in Europe this morning.
     
    #2 Tempus, Mar 17, 2005
  3. mac2gul

    mac2gul New Member

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    John,

    A lot ballyhoo about benefits of ethanol, but has anyone calculated the costs in dollars and environmental damage from the fertilizer used to grow the corn?
     
    #3 mac2gul, Mar 17, 2005
  4. richard schumacher

    richard schumacher shortbus driver

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    Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel in hybrids with catalytic convertors. B20 with antigel additives and dimethylether are nice fuels also.
     
    #4 richard schumacher, Mar 17, 2005
  5. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mac2gul\";p=\"73212)</div>
    You're assuming the corn is used for the sole purpose of fuel. In reality, it helps to balance the market. Farmers are going to grow it anyway. But rather than only having the feed market to sell it too, they also have the fuel market. It's a economic benefit that is difficult to put a $$$ value on.

    And yes, there have been many studies done. There is no ideal solution. They conclude that ethanol is a lesser evil than oil.

    So ethanol in combination with "full" hybrids is a good solution. Simply drilling for more oil and not bothering with anything else is not.
     
    #5 john1701a, Mar 17, 2005
  6. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(richard schumacher\";p=\"73214)</div>
    However, it is not cost-effective with the competition.
     
    #6 john1701a, Mar 17, 2005
  7. richard schumacher

    richard schumacher shortbus driver

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    Well, heck, my Prius is not cost effective either.
     
    #7 richard schumacher, Mar 17, 2005
  8. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(richard schumacher\";p=\"73214)</div>
    Richard:

    You can also use diethylether as a suitable cosolvent. Plenty of choices out their for suitable bio cosolvents.
     
    #8 jayman, Mar 17, 2005
  9. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a\";p=\"73145)</div>
    The United States should look at buying up the Athabasca Tar Sands in Northern Alberta. This will immediately solve the supply problem and - more importantly - ensure North Americans retain control of the Tar Sands.

    Currently, Canadian taxpayer dollars are being funneled through various semi-secret Crown Corporations (EDC, CIDA, etc) to finance a Chinese takeover of the Tar Sands.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a\";p=\"73145)</div>
    Only in certain motor designs, for some reason the Volvo HD series. They're working on it, and it's easily managed with post treatment. Of course, the EU has mandated ultra low sulphur diesel fuel for a long time.

    Our North American diesel has several hundred times the sulphur level, so the base pump timing must be different (More NOx right there) and many of the post treatment devices won't work with sulphur levels that high. Why the h*** is it taking so long for us to get the sulphur out?? Hmmm???

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a\";p=\"73145)</div>
    So does good 'ole diesel #2. Ever seen what happens to a fuel system when you try to operate on #2 in temps colder than -15 C??

    The CFPP (Cold Filter Plugging Point) is around that temp, and you need lighter distillates to counter the gelling. The lighter distillates found in #1 diesel have less lubricity and also reduce economy by 5-10%.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a\";p=\"73145)</div>
    With minor modification to the fuel system, of course. Even E85 requires comparatively minor modification to the fuel system. Thanks to modern embedded RTOS and cheap ORP's, a lifetime sensor in the tank will inform the PCM which fuel/ignition map to use based on Ethanol content.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a\";p=\"73145)</div>
    Because Lutz et al are complete boobs, that is why. They got fat and happy and lazy off those huge profit margins from the Suburban, the Tahoe, and the pickup trucks. Yes, it's the 70's all over again.

    As I stated in another post, Lutz et al f***** up and now they are desperately hoping that the price of oil goes down to $9.99 so they won't look like complete fools. If you mention Toyota Prius they stick their fingers in their ears and go "lalalalalalalala ..."

    I feel sorry for the GM workers, but IMHO the Shareholders and the UAW should hold down Lutz et al and shove an apple corer up his a**. Don't blame the workers for this, they aren't involved in strategic multi-billion dollar decisions - or blunders.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a\";p=\"73145)</div>
    Well, Ford was a h*** of a lot more interested in the "new" Mustang and the "new" F-150. So I lump their executives in the same "clueless category" as Lutz et al: they f***** up.

    As far as DC, you have their new Durango Hemi and - drum roll please - the Chrysler 300C Hemi. A car so repulsive it induces the Dry Heaves in me.

    For the money that GM, Ford, and DC p***** away on new performance cars, grossly ugly large cars, and of course SUV's and pickup trucks, they could have put technology the equal of the Prius in their entire lineup. Even better.

    You're going to see more folks start shopping sensibly - given the higher fuel prices - and this will be a rude wakeup call for the Big Three. They brought it onto themselves through marketing blunders.
     
    #9 jayman, Mar 17, 2005
  10. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(richard schumacher\";p=\"73223)</div>
    Richard:

    Exactly.

    No car is "cost effective" and no house is "cost effective." If you wanted to be "cost effective" you'd walk everywhere and sleep in a cardboard box.

    It's all a matter of perspective.
     
    #10 jayman, Mar 17, 2005
  11. richard schumacher

    richard schumacher shortbus driver

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    #11 richard schumacher, Mar 17, 2005
  12. MarinJohn

    MarinJohn Senior Member

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    Jayman your 3/17 7:14am post is good and had me laughing too! Great replies!!
     
    #12 MarinJohn, Mar 17, 2005
  13. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MarinJohn\";p=\"73293)</div>
    Thank you John:

    I really can't help going off on a rant when the topic of GM and Lutz pop up.

    Remember I had *very* high expectations when I special-ordered a 2000 GMC Sierra 1500. In hindsight, what the h*** was I thinking?? That truck .... FAH!
     
    #13 jayman, Mar 17, 2005
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