Diesel vs. Hybrid

There are several advantages of a hybrid that are not in current diesels:

1) regenerative braking - not to drive this way all of the time, it does avoid burning energy
2) eliminate idle fuel burn at all speeds - the hybrid turns off the engine even at speed and 'no fuel' is less than diesel idle fuel burn
3) surge power - a diesel (or gas vehicle) has to have an engine sized for the worst-case power even though these are infrequent events and the hybrid can use a smaller engine

The hybrid does not care if the heat engine is gas, diesel or any other energy source. What it does is bring the tremendous flexibility of electric power to complement and correct the limitations of heat engines.

Bob Wilson

 

There are several advantages of a hybrid that are not in current diesels:

1) regenerative braking - not to drive this way all of the time, it does avoid burning energy
2) eliminate idle fuel burn at all speeds - the hybrid turns off the engine even at speed and 'no fuel' is less than diesel idle fuel burn
3) surge power - a diesel (or gas vehicle) has to have an engine sized for the worst-case power even though these are infrequent events and the hybrid can use a smaller engine

The hybrid does not care if the heat engine is gas, diesel or any other energy source. What it does is bring the tremendous flexibility of electric power to complement and correct the limitations of heat engines.

Bob Wilson

 

Yes, diesels get better mileage (even after you take into account the fact that diesel fuel is denser), and hybrids provide little to no benefit at constant, high speed (gas or diesel).

While diesels put out less CO2 per mile, they put out more of other pollutants. As a result, they tend to not be as common in automobiles in the US, especially in places like California with very strict emission laws. There are solutions to that though, so ...

What you'd like ideally is a hybrid using a clean diesel engine for the ICE.

Yes, hybrids can compete in Europe, if they're diesel. Peugot is now saying that they will be producing a diesel hybrid. I'm sure more will follow.

 

Also, EU fuel taxes greatly favor diesel over petrol so there is no saving from driving a hybrid.

 

Diesel cars sell like crazy in Europe nowdays.
In Norway, diesel is more or less 10% cheaper than petrol. In Sweden, the diesel costs more or less the same at petrol. Diesels still sells like crazy. The diesel cars normally use less fuel than normal petrol cars, and can sometimes compete with the Prius.

The main advantage for the Prius, environmeltally speaking, comes in stop-and-go traffic where the engine stops. But there are some things to consider about pollution. The modern diesels have particle filters for catch a lot of the pollution from the cars. And the diesel in Europe normally contain much less sulfur then the US diesel.

Yes, you still see black clouds from modern diesel cars, but it is less common than earlier. But I do believe it is important to keep all filters on those cars clean to avoid the classic clouds.

The diesel engines have become much bette in the recent years, and they now run much smoother than earlier. The best diesel engines can almost compete with good petrol engines in terms of vibration and sound.

I chose to order a Prius because I don't like the smell, vibration and sound from diesel. And of course because the Prius is a much more special car than normal diesel cars...


Stein

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(briloop @ Aug 30 2007, 07:27 PM) [snapback]504596[/snapback]</div>

I am not aware of any quotas for number of cars being sold in Europe, in the UK most (Toyota, Honda, Nissan) build most of there cars in the UK. In fact cars which we once considered as British such as Ford are probably built outside the UK. So the best way to support British manufacturing can be to buy a UK built Japaneses car (although I do think the Prius is not built in the UK).

It is getting hard to justify the Prius on mpg grounds especially if you do a lot of motorway driving. In the UK we get a tax break so that helps as it is a company car. I work with people with diesels and they cannot match the mpg I get but I do have to put the effort in to get it and I do little fast road driving. I love it on the grounds of being different.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bwilson4web @ Aug 31 2007, 10:25 AM) [snapback]504616[/snapback]</div>

1/ Regenerative braking is already in the fuel consumption figures
2/ Idle fuel burn is already in the fuel consumption figures
3/ A 1.9 litre intercooled turbo diesel in a car the size of a Prius has lots of acceleration.
Diesels do very well on motorways, Europe is crisscrossed with motorways, particularly England. Sometimes the motorways can become long car parks but mostly they are good for high speed commuting. Some German motorways have no speed limit and diesels will run at these high speeds all day where a hybrid would struggle. Europeans wont slow down for better fuel consumption. Most people really don't care about emissions.

An English friend of mine said he wouldn't buy a Toyota because Toyotas are "Paki cars". In other words the Pakistanis drive Toyota therefore Brits shouldn't. Of course the country town where they live the taxis are all Toyotas and all the taxi drivers are Pakistani because the owner of the taxi company is Pakistani. I hate racism.

Can you blame people in Europe wanting to buy local cars just like Americans like American cars?
Maybe it isn't Europe favouring diesel, maybe USA dissuades people from driving diesels? The US car industry don't want the hassle of making diesel cars in any number. Face it, even a lot of your trucks are petrol.
Do you think GM and Ford USA would be spreading how dirty and noisy diesels are? They wouldn't do that would they? Who was it said Hummers are more environmentally friendly than Prius? A promotional company? Who were they working for?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(patsparks @ Aug 31 2007, 03:40 AM) [snapback]504774[/snapback]</div>

Never come across any issues with Brits not buying Toyota's on the grounds you mention. Like Honda they are considered very good quality cars, their problem has been they are not so leading edge on style and they are undercut on price. Also get the impression that they are happy to sell slightly less but at a slightly higher profit margin. Also they never had diesels which is now addressed as most of there new small to medium cars seem to have the diesel as the top of the range/sport model.

I love my Prius but what it is is the Hybrid side the ICE could be a diesel. In fact the ideal car for me would be a smaller Hybrid (the Prius is big in the UK) with I have to say a diesel engine.

 

I think it was a Burnley thing. I put it out there to see what response I got.
Yes Prius is a big car there, I had a Vauxhall Meriva (good little car) when I was there in 2004 and my friends thought that was big. I had a Camry back here and they thought that was huge.
I'd like to see some Toyota diesels here!! Only the 4x4s and utes come in diesel here.

I guess diesel has established it'self in europe unlike Australia and USA so it's harder for Toyota to break into the market there. Manual transmission is more popular too and "Top Gear" didn't help. Their test was stupid.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(patsparks @ Aug 31 2007, 04:43 AM) [snapback]504783[/snapback]</div>

An interesting point about autos, in the UK autos are quite rare, and I have noticed that manufactures are not always offering autos with the diesels. The new Honda Civic diesel does not have an auto option. Since I have had the Prius I would have think very carefully about a manual again.

Also I drove a new Mazda 3 1.6 Turbo diesel, which has a book mpg similar to the Prius. The car I believe will struggle to get it but will be good. The thing I noticed and the guy that has the car agrees with is that it is totally gut less a low revs. I stalled the car a number of times pulling away. This totally does not fit the high torque low rpm you expect from a turbo diesel, If all the new diesels are like that to get the high mpg then that will be not good.

 

Doesn't sound typical of diesels.

 

The diesel in Europe is cleaner than here in the US, less sulfur etc.

 

"Some German motorways have no speed limit and diesels will run at these high speeds all day where a hybrid would struggle."

Prove it.

Some American Interstates (I-90 in Montana) have no daytime speed limit and my hybrid HAS run all day at high speeds where a diesel will struggle. Really just saying the same thing. I've no proof either.

I dislike the hybrids do nothing on the highway argument. HSD is constantly and consistently producing and consuming electricity to get better efficiency and lower emissions, using just enough for the job at hand, in the city or on the highway.

 

I don't have to prove anything to you, Toyota need to prove the Prius to Europe if they want to sell them there.
You drive long distances at 100+mph in your Prius? Yeah OK. and when you do you still manage diesel beating economy?

There is no reason for US diesel being dirtier than EU diesel. What reason is there for that? It isn't the diesel car's fault.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(finman @ Aug 31 2007, 09:34 AM) [snapback]504866[/snapback]</div>

I agree the Prius will cruise at high speed no problem (unless you mean very high speed) it just does not see the mpg advantage it get at slower speed, but it is still good. My old corolla got about 40UK mpg at speed the Prius gets about 50UK mpg, 10mpg better

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(patsparks @ Aug 31 2007, 10:40 AM) [snapback]504868[/snapback]</div>

No, not long distances at 100+MPH. I just wanted to state the Prius is capable without ever having to prove it.

All cars are subject to the laws of physics and air resistance, meaning the faster you go, the more energy is need to move you...even a diesel can't escape that. I want to say the few that have done 100+MPH in the Prius reported 25 MPG. I've no idea if a diesel will do that. Some cars are designed to be for the higher-speed highways, some are designed to be a bit more all-around performers.

I've no idea about the dirty diesel fuel here...cost, maybe? More $$ to get or refine cleaner, lower-sulfur diesel?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(finman @ Aug 31 2007, 07:34 AM) [snapback]504866[/snapback]</div>

You might dislike the statement, but it's true. Producing and consuming electricity at constant speed on flat ground can only reduce efficiency, and therefore increase emissions. You will always lose energy when converting energy from one form to another, and then lose some more energy when you convert it back again.

The only benefit a hybrid has in those conditions is that the ICE is smaller than in most other cars. What you get from the hybrid is when you want to accelerate to pass, for example, you get the equivalent power of a larger engine from the electric motor augmentation instead. What the hybrid allows is good acceleration without having to pay for the inefficiency of an engine sized to the highest required acceleration when you are not actually accelerating.

A diesel with the same power as the gas ICE in the Prius pushing a car with the same aerodynamic drag as the Prius will have much better efficiency than the Prius at constant high speed on level ground.

Where the hybrid really shines against the non-hybrid diesel is when you are decelerating (including stopping) and accelerating a lot. I.e. normal street driving. Then you get all the advantages mentioned of running the ICE at more efficient conditions most of the time, recovering energy from the brakes, shutting down the ICE when it's not needed, and using the electric motor to augment acceleration.

Generating electricity and converting back to mechanical energy is an inefficiency that you invest, to get more dividends back in stop and go or accelerating and decelerating traffic. At constant speed on level ground, you get back no dividends.

 

I guess all these diesels are just dropped from the sky doing 100 MPH and NEVER see city driving, always going full out.

So many other advantages of hybrids escape the diesel fans. so be it. These have been discussed before.

My point is your point: smaller engine augmented by electricty when needed instead of a large engine that is used largely (pun intended) for getting up to speed, rarely needing that power to lug around.

I really don't care about diesels. Until you can get one that saves brake pads (regenerative braking), stops when the vehicle is stopped, and is lower in OVERALL pollution, then we may have a case.

Others "Need" that power and speed for the higher speed roadways. that's fine, buy and use the car for it's intended purpose.

Many "need" 4WD and yet, rarely "use" it.