Cut your costs at the gas pump

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Darwood @ Apr 12 2006, 10:11 AM) [snapback]238600[/snapback]</div>

Yeah, that last line in the article made NO sense to me at all. I wonder which hybrid they're talking about? And who the heck calculated it out to 21.5 years to recoup the so-called hybrid premium?

I'm still a Prius newbie (and a self-proclaimed leadfoot) and even I am getting a minimum of 45 mpg in my Prius. Compare that to 25 mpg in my former vehicle, a Saturn.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TonyPSchaefer @ Apr 12 2006, 10:34 AM) [snapback]238612[/snapback]</div>

I don't think that thing should even be allowed to be called a hybrid....JMHO...

 

"Miles per gallon" is a very widely used metric, but be careful with the math. Here is an example table for 12,000 miles per year and $2.75 per gallon.

MPG ... Gallons/yr ... $/yr ... annual savings vs. 20 MPG
20 ......... 600 ......... 1650 ...... $0
25 ......... 480 ......... 1320 ... $330
30 ......... 400 ......... 1100 ... $550
35 ......... 343 ........... 943 ... $707
40 ......... 300 ........... 825 ... $825
45 ......... 267 ........... 734 ... $916
50 ......... 240 ........... 660 ... $990

If I guessed correctly the fuel price AOL and Darwood used, the 5-yr fuel cost savings would be $916 * 5 = $4580, not $7500. This is not to say that I accept the Consumer Reports analysis, even after their "correction". I think comparing the current Prius to Corolla is inappropriate, and that they substantially overestimated Prius depreciation.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tochatihu @ Apr 12 2006, 01:03 PM) [snapback]238640[/snapback]</div>

I agree with you. One other thing to be careful with, the Consumer Reports analysis mentioned they assumed gas would rise to $3/gallon, then $4/gallon over the next 5 years. What they didn't mention, but you could find out by reversing their math, is that they assume $2/gal for years 1-3. That makes the average price $2.67/gal. Here we are, about 2 months later, and I can't even buy gas for $2.67/gallon. I don't want to think what it will be like 5 years from now, but I bet we'll be looking back at $4/gallon wishfully and depreciation will still be almost zero.

nerfer

 

Another thing Consumer Reports did wrong, in my opinion: They assumed that the Prius is comparable to the Corolla in every way except the hybrid system.

Those two cars aren't really in the same class. The Corolla has no touch-screen computer. Every Prius comes with one. The Corolla's entry-level models do not come with any engine immobilizer system; it's standard on the Prius. All but one of the Prius options packages now come with Smart Key, backup monitor, MP3 capability and built-in i-POD/audio input capability on the stereo. In many markets it's impossible to get a Prius without those features. But you can't get those features on a Corolla. The Prius has a nicer, quieter ride; more storage space due to the hatchback...

In so many ways, the Prius is designed as an options-heavy car. The Corolla is not. The options cost money, and Consumer Reports apparently doesn't take that into account.

In their original (erroneous) story, CR said the Corolla costs a tiny bit less than the Prius after 6 years, even when gas is accounted for. Later, they said "oops-- we made a simple math error. In actuality the Corolla costs a tiny bit MORE than the Prius after 6 years, once you've gotten the hybrid tax credit. "

I think most Corolla owners choose their cars over the Prius only because they want to save money. (True, the Corolla has a little more power, but since the 2003 redesign of the Prius the difference is no longer as significant as it once was.) If most Corolla owners were told, "You can get a car with considerably more high-end options for LESS money over six years," they would feel rather like they were being told they could buy a Camry for less than a Corolla. They wouldn't say "What? This is an outrage! I thought hybrids were supposed to save me money!" They'd say "Hm. More luxury, for less money. This is a no-brainer."

In fact, other magazines that have attempted to do the same thing Consumer Reports is attempting here have used the Camry as the comparable rather than the Corolla. That comparison, on a financial basis, is won HANDS-DOWN by the Prius. But then that should be no surprise: the Prius even costs less over the long haul than the comparatively economy-class Corolla. Consumer Reports tells us so.

In a fair fight, the 2006 Prius clobbers non-hybrids. And they haven't even rolled out the 100+-mpg 2008 Prius with more powerful battery cells (reported to be on its way in news reports reprinted on this site in the last week or two). When that happens, the hybrid market will most certainly no longer be only one percent of the total car market.

 

I don't understand all this "Years to payback" nonsense. If I had bought a Corvette, Porsche, Suburban, etc, etc. There would be none of this talk. You buy a car because you like its features, it does the things you need it for, or just to show off. Does any body really give a ++++ about "Years to payback" except journalists trying to sell paper, or is there some ulterior motive that I am missing? Every vehicle depreciates from purchase price, the Prius less than most. Isn't that really more important than mythical payback days vs. dollars? This topic has been beat to death, let it die. My payback occurs every time I push the "Power" button.

 

My payback occurs every time I push the "Power" button.

Hey, me too!! Great way to look at it.

"Smiles per hour"...the old pre-owned Toyota ad line. Remember that...buy a used Toyota and get X number of smiles per hour.

Well, my smiles per hour is off the chart. Been that way for 2 years now.

Curt.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(subarutoo @ Apr 13 2006, 03:33 PM) [snapback]239328[/snapback]</div>

I think you raise an excellent question: Who cares in the first place about "payback"? Also, why SHOULD we care?

To be fair, I think Consumer Reports isn't wrong to ask the question. When I tell people I bought a Prius, perhaps the most common response is "That's great -- You're going to save so much money on gas!" Most of them even have the conception Consumer Reports is addressing: that you'll end up MAKING money over the long haul when you buy a Prius.

The second most common response is the skeptical "I've read that the extra cost of the hybrid system is larger than what you'll end up saving on gas."

So I think the question is a fair one. Who's right?

Thing is, more often than not I think the people who are asking that question are NOT the ones who are seriously considering hybrids. The ones who buy hybrids -- myself included -- make peace with the idea that the car is worth it even if we never make back the money on the gas. Why? Because it's a cooler car. Beacuse it's more environmentally sound, regardless of whether it's economically stingy. Because buying hybrids encourage the car makers to take fuel economy into consideration, thus improving the likelihood that we'll get even more efficient cars in the future. (Witness the above-referenced prospect of a 120-mpg Prius as soon as 2008!) Because it makes us look green. Because the planet is running out of oil. And, if you're like me: Because we'd much rather give our money to Toyota, for whom "green" considerations are at least on the map, than to Exxon Mobil and its competitors...! (Or, in the case of used Prii, we'd rather give our money to the prior owners than to Exxon Mobil and its competitors.)

To be fair, again, to Consumer Reports: They do say right at the top of the article that there are lots of great reasons to buy hybrids besides the gas-saving consideration. They point out that they have a long history of writing very positive reviews of several hybrids, particularly the Prius. Then they justify the article by saying, in effect, "We're only talking to people who only want a hybrid if it actually costs them less money than the other cars they're considering." They're addressing, in other words, the type of people I keep running into, for whom the gas savings seem to be the biggest attraction.

For now, as you've implied and I've agreed, those people may not make up a large percentage of the hybrid-buying population. The fact that hybrid sales go up every time gas prices go up indicates that the economic motive is at least a significant consideration. So does the fact that SUV sales are falling off big-time while hybrid sales rise. A recent Gallup Poll shows that (a surprisingly high) 57 percent of car buyers say they will consider a hybrid as their next car purchase. But maybe a lot of those people won't end up putting down the cash once they do the math and find out that they aren't going to be able to afford a second house with the gas savings.

When the 120-mpg Prius debuts, however, suddenly a LOT more of those money-motivated people are going to start buying hybrids, and the hybrid market will balloon tremendously. When that happens, the "only-if-it-saves-me-money" crowd will have the "who-cares-if-it-saves-me-money?" crowd to thank, because we'll have made the savings possible by encouraging the industry to do the research.

But even under the status quo, in which Prii average 40-50 mpg, Consumer Reports' headline missed the point. Instead of "It's all Hybrid Hype: You won't make your money back!!!!" the angle of the story should have been: "As if there weren't enough good reasons to buy a Prius, we just found out you're actually are gonna pay at LEAST a little LESS for it then that other car you're considering!"

Ah well. At least more and more people ARE buying the cars they need rather than the more-expensive cars they want. Maybe one day we will see, as our fellow poster said, an Echo in every garage.

Well, not an Echo. They're discontinuing the Echo. But you know what we mean.

 

It's hard to calculate my gas savings over my Kia Sephia. It got 25MPG around town and 36MPG on the highway, but since I do several long trips per year those highway miles are more than a trivial percentage of my 20,000 miles per year.

I'd guesstimate maybe $700 savings per year at $2.75 per gallon. Plus the repair bills I'm not paying anymore...

 

There is another point that does not seem to come up at all, and that is the repair and maintenance costs. The Prius does not have little things like starter motors nor transmissions. These things do break in traditional cars, and a transmission is an expensive item. The hybrid system which does both of those tasks is under warranty for a minimum of 8 years /100,000 miles - they fail to factor that in. They also fail to factor in that you will go through brakes much much less frequently.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TonyPSchaefer @ Apr 14 2006, 07:03 AM) [snapback]239667[/snapback]</div>

Fear not, Tony! I'm right there with you guys. My response is normally: When will my $40k Volvo that gets 22mpg pay me back over the Prius? It makes no sense! Anybody yet tried to put a price tag on CA HOV access? I thought not.

My Prius replaced my Civic. The Civic was getting about 38mpg, and my Prius gets about 50mpg. NOBODY questioned how much I paid for the Civic or what the gas mileage was. It was not until I bought the Prius that suddenly I'm an idiot for "paying all that mony" that I'll never get back. Before the Civic, I owned a Volvo (as discussed above) and again - nobody worried that I'd spent $40k on a low-mileage vehilce. It'll never end.

 

Another is the insurance. In so many places I have seen these writers referring to increased costs of insurance but most who posted here had decreased or minor fluctuations in their insurance. Mine went down.

Time is unmeasurable, less time at the gas pump, less time at the shop, less time in traffic.

I agree that most of these fools are trying to compare apples to oranges. The Prius (04+) is not even in the same size class as the Corolla, not to mention features.

The actual gas savings are wonderful for me...14mpg to 44mpg but the increased freedom from the pump is even more important.

 

"Smiles per hour"...the old pre-owned Toyota ad line. Remember that...buy a used Toyota and get X number of smiles per hour.

Well, my smiles per hour is off the chart. Been that way for 2 years now.


How about Smiles per Gallon?

 

I honestly don't care about gas prices. Ten dollars a gallon wouldn't faze me. And you don't save money by buying a new car. Maybe you spend less on one car than another, in the purchase price or over the long haul. But since when is spending less equal to saving??? Since Madison Avenue took over control of your brain, that's when.

However, I do care about leaving a smaller footprint as I walk my path of life across this green Earth. And since I'm not going to do without a car, the Prius leaves the smallest footprint of any 4-5-passenger car you can buy today. And it's a great value for the features and comfort offered.

Now, if they offered Lexus luxury on a Prius, without sacrificing the Prius's performance or environmental-quality stats, I'd buy it. And I'd pay the cost. But I won't expand my environmental footprint for luxury. Guess I'm just an old tree-hugger. Yep, I like trees. They're nice. Of course, I'm gonna buy that new 2009 (???) Prius as soon as I can get one. Used 2004 Prius in two years, anyone? The line forms here.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(subarutoo @ Apr 13 2006, 03:33 PM) [snapback]239328[/snapback]</div>

Hooray! Let me second (or third or fourth) this statement!

I showed my car off at work, and someone asked what I paid for it. I said $28K. Everyone was like, "whoa! that's a lot of money!"

And yet, they don't say that to the person who bought the $45k (or more) Audi. Or the $55k Mercedes. Or the $60k BMW. I wonder why? Obviously, the only reason that those people spent a lot of money on those cars is because they must get REALLY good gas mileage, and that it will only take a couple of years to pay it back... what? They bought those cars because they liked them, and liked the features? Oh.

I'm a geek. I bought the Prius because it is the perfect geek car. High efficiency is just part of that for me.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(gregvr @ Apr 17 2006, 08:00 AM) [snapback]240820[/snapback]</div>

That about summed it up. It's easy for me to talk about fuel savings with those around me. I did it even with my 1996 Camry. My 36 mpg easily stomped my friend who drives a Jeep Cherokee...and even moreso my friends who drive F350 diesel trucks. So my 50 mpg so far in the Prius...helps even more.

But, I bought it b/c it fit my needs. More space in the backseat than my Camry. NEW. 113k miles lower. All the techno gadgets a Software Engineer could possibly want. I wanted something I wasn't going to have to start worrying about in 2 years when I'm back in school for my MBA and absolutely broke. Yeah I could have bought a Corolla, but I didn't want a wind up car. I considered VW, Saab, and the Hybrid Accord....and really nothing could compare on price with the options I wanted. So who cares what the popular media says about my decision. 30 years ago it wouldn't have been accepted by the media that I am doing a "man's" job....60 years ago it would have been bad taste for me to wear pants!

 

"How about Smiles per Gallon?"

D'oh! (Homer Simpson slapping head)

It WAS per gallon.

Time to bring that back, retro-like. The FJ Cruiser shows that happens even in the Toyota line.

Curt.