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Clunky engine, stalling, no acceleration, p2103

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by BuyJapanese, Jun 12, 2019.

  1. BuyJapanese

    BuyJapanese Member

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    Hi folks! Thanks for your help in advance. I've found lots of answers to past problems on this forum already, but nothing on the internet matches the symptoms I'm seeing currently. Here are the facts:

    • 2005 Prius, ~313k miles
    • Parked for a week with no MIL at the beginning.
    • When I tried to drive after that week, it wasn't accelerating correctly. In retrospect, I think I just drained all the charge in the HV battery. I drove a half-mile on a slight downhill, pedal floored, while it slowly accelerated to 28. I heard the gas engine running, but it didn't seem to be doing anything. Then it started decelerating, then I couldn't get it to move at all. Towed back home with the truck.
    • Scanned codes and got only one: P2103. I'm no expert on this area, but the throttle body looked fine with the air filter off, throttle moved when pushed open, no obviously damaged wires, etc.
    • At this point, I realized the 12v battery was drained and not charging. After charging, I took voltage readings. ~11.7v when fully charged, ~13v shortly after turning car on, THEN the engine started making that awful clunking/shaking noise (possibly a really bad low idle random misfire) and I checked the voltage again; it was down to ~11.4v with the engine still running.
    • At that point I quickly scanned the new codes before the 12v died and the car stalled. Two more codes: P0102 and P0113, in addition to P2103.
    • The car did indeed stall shortly after that and wouldn't restart without recharging the battery.
    • I hoped this would all be solved by replacing the 12v battery. I did that—no improvement. With the new battery in (the codes had been cleared when I switched them) the only code was again P2103, but the engine was still clunky, the engine would not rev, and the car would not accelerate.
    • At some point in here I started seeing the "Main Battery" light come on in the nav display. I'm hoping that's simply an effect of the main cause, and that because of whatever electrical/gas engine issue is going on, the HV battery is not charging.
    Please advise! Theories, relevant service bulletins/repair manual excerpts, things to test...thanks! I would just replace the throttle body, but I'm skeptical that's the real issue. ECM is another possibility with all these weird electrical symptoms, but replacing that would be a major hassle without more confidence it would help.
     
  2. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    DTC P2103 means that the engine control module (ECM) thinks that the throttle body motor is drawing excessive current, more than 10A. So the ECM sets the throttle plate opening to a fixed opening (16 degrees) and puts the car in limp home mode.

    1. Disconnect the throttle motor wiring harness connector and measure resistance across the terminals of the motor. The spec at 68 degrees F is 0.3 ohm to 100 ohms, which seems like a pretty big range. In case it is not obvious, you need to account for the resistance of the meter leads by first shorting the test leads together and noting the digital multimeter reading. Suppose the reading is 0.3 ohm. Then subtract that value from whatever subsequent resistance measurements you take.

    2. If the motor resistance is within spec, then measure resistance of the wiring harness connector to body ground. At either terminal the resistance to ground should be more than 10K ohms.

    3. Finally, measure resistance from each terminal of the wiring harness connector to the appropriate ECM wiring harness connector. At this point I am going to refer you to techinfo.toyota.com so that you can obtain the factory repair manual info, can see the illustrations, etc.

    4. Since the engine is producing inadequate power, it is certainly possible that has provoked the high voltage traction battery to fail. Considering the odometer reading on your car, such a failure is way past due.
     
    Mendel Leisk and Skibob like this.
  3. BuyJapanese

    BuyJapanese Member

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    1. Throttle motor resistance net is normal at 4.1 ohms.
    2. Wiring harness to ground resistance is within spec (reading "1" on my multimeter at every ohm setting) for both terminals.
    3. Wiring harness side to ECM side is within spec for both wires. 0.0 ohms on one side and 0.2 ohms on the other.
    Since the throttle plate moves correctly when pushed and all electrical readings are normal, this seems to call for an ECM replacement. I feel like I should take the throttle body motor off and try cleaning/lubing it first though.

    I also pulled an old mouse nest off the top of the cabin air filter when I removed the glove compartment to access the ECM...I bought this car 6 months ago ($900 with body in great shape; still think it was a good deal). It had been sitting for a while before former owner sold it and I've already had some unrelated mouse-chewed wires soldered.
     
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  4. Skibob

    Skibob Senior Member

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    What are you using to scan the codes? A generic OBD reader might not be able to read all the codes. You say the throttle plate moves ok but since it opens and closes electrically if that part is bad moving the throttle plate would not show that.
     
  5. BuyJapanese

    BuyJapanese Member

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    It is a generic scan tool—MaxiScan MS300.

    I took the whole throttle body off today. It looked to be in reasonable shape—some corrosion, but not too cruddy and all the moving parts seemed fine. I've ordered a new used one anyway, and a new used ECM, for $60 total (I love Ebay!) and will see if either of those fixes it.

    I had another theory—total exhaust blockage, like from a wasp nest—but no, it's not that either.
     
    Patrick Wong likes this.
  6. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    At those prices it made good sense to buy both. That also shows you those parts have a low failure rate since the demand apparently is low. I suggest you use a new throttle body gasket to ensure no vacuum leaks downstream from the mass air flow sensor.

    Since you have a new throttle body on the way, maybe it would be fun to apply voltage to the original throttle motor and see what happens. Just apply voltage momentarily so you can assess the motor behavior.

    The ECM probably applies a pulse modulated waveform to control the throttle opening
     
    #6 Patrick Wong, Jun 13, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019
  7. BuyJapanese

    BuyJapanese Member

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    I agree on testing the old one with voltage. I cut off the plug at the end of the wires so I could separate the wires, stripped them, and tested with an AA battery first. There was a click and it tried to move, but the throttle plate did not move. I wanted to test a 9V but couldn't find one. Then I tested directly to car battery terminals. There were some sparks at the end of the wires, and the throttle plate opened fully.

    I wish it hadn't—that would prove it was locked up and I'd be confident the replacement would fix the issue. As it is, probably not. I'll try it anyway and see what happens. It won't arrive til Monday or so. I'll update afterwards.
     
  8. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    Since you had measured 4.1 ohms resistance at the motor, that implies the motor will draw 3A current when 12V is applied. (current x resistance = voltage per Ohm's Law) That amount of current flow would create some sparking.

    While you are waiting for the new throttle body to arrive, maybe you might reinstall the old one now that you've fully exercised it by applying battery power, and see if there is any difference. Just if you need some fun over the weekend.
     
    SFO likes this.
  9. BuyJapanese

    BuyJapanese Member

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    Well, it works with the new throttle body! I think in all my years of increasingly complex DIY mechanic work on old cars, this is the first time I've ever gotten significant help solving a noticeable performance issue from the OBD codes.

    The new throttle body has 1.5 ohms of resistance compared to the 4.1 from the old one. Given that spec is anywhere from 0.3 to 100 ohms, that's probably not relevant to the failure of the old one. It must have been mechanical resistance plus electrical resistance. I could push it open, but not easily.

    A note for posterity: if you're going to replace the throttle body, make sure you have coolant on hand. There are two coolant lines (one in, one out) that connect to the throttle body, and I lost at least a pint of coolant when I detached them.
     
  10. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    Congrats on your success!

    An alternative to losing the coolant would be to plug the hoses. I bought a bunch of soft silicone rubber plugs in various sizes for that purpose. A makeshift alternative would be to use a couple of pencil stubs, or some such thing.

     
    #10 Patrick Wong, Jun 19, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2019
  11. knightg

    knightg New Member

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    Hoping it would help someone in the future, I would like to share my experience on this topic:
    2005 (Gen 2) Prius: we first encountered this issue last December: P2103, I cleaned the TB with TB cleaner, then P2111. Also, the Red triangle, and "HV Battery" message on the display came up, after the HV battery was almost depleted when the electric motor tried to compensate for the very poor idling of the petrol engine.
    I waited 2 days, replaced the Throttle Body - and that fixed everything. Before starting the engine with the new TB, I waited 2 days, also removed the 12V battery for a while, so the HV SoC was reset: the card started this way "believing" that the SoC was 3 bars instead of 0 (that I saw before, when I was the red triangle).

    No problems for 3 months, then the car completely stopped (my wife drove it, she could pull to the side luckily). I checked the codes: P2103 again. I didn't wan to just buy another Throttle Body, so I checked my old TB (that I removed 3 months ago): the problem was that the Throttle Position Sensor was stuck in this position:

    TPS_Stuck.jpeg

    It has its own, small spring that is supposed to bring the TPS back to it's starting position:

    TPS_in_good_position.jpeg

    So the big spring of the TB only returns the TB to the starting position, but not the TPS! That small TPS spring was dry, but quite dusty. Also: there was a very small plastic molding error in the TPS inner housing that made this small spring's life harder: I think mostly that caused this stuck. I cleaned the spring with alcohol (it moved much better after cleaning) and with a small knife, I cut (actually filed) this very small plastic molding error.

    But: officially the TPS is not a replaceable part for Priuses (at least for Gen2). So the official method it to replace the Throttle Body. But the exact same TPS is a replaceable part for some other Toyotas, so I started checking it. In the factory, the TPS screws on the TB are marked with a yellow paint. You can try to just use the paint marks to place the TPS back to it's good position, but a better method is to measure the correct value:

    In the Prius documentation the VTA1 and VTA2 voltage ranges are specified for the TPS. Since the ECM is using 5V for the TPS, I used a stabilized 5V source to measure the voltages. I set the screws so the VTA1 was 0.7V and VTA2 was 2.3V.

    The VTA ranges are quite large BTW:
    Throttle position sensor VTA1 voltage: 0.6 to 3.96 V
    Throttle position sensor VTA2 voltage: 2.25 to 5.0 V

    To assist anyone in the future, I measured the resistance of this setup:
    - between the Red and Pink contacts: 1682 Ohms
    - between the Red and Blue contacts: 1243 Ohms

    It was in March, car is perfect since then. I hope it will be useful for someone! Also, thanks for all the above, and other related posts here, as it really helped me back then!
     
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