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Clunkers and your tax dollar

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by charityslave, Aug 10, 2009.

  1. charityslave

    charityslave New Member

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    I recently traded in my 1996 Ford Explorer for a 2009 Toyota Prius. While most of my friends and colleagues were happy and supportive of my decision and good fortune, one of them became miffed when he overheard me talking about it and, his face a little contorted with anger, said "Why should my tax money go to help you buy a new car?" I started to list the reasons but he would have none of it and he left in a bit of a huff (wanna guess who he voted for in the last election?). But it got me thinking. Why did he get so angry? And why should we support a program such as this?

    I think there are two main reasons he was so angry. First, he sees me benefiting directly from a government program that he is opposed to. He can't scream at AIG. And besides, they are a corporation- big, impersonal, and far away. An abstraction. But here I was, a flesh and blood target of his tax anxiety. And since I was not in any dire financial straits, just a colleague with a crappy car, he probably felt like I had taken money from him I didn't need. In his mind, it was theft and there wasn't a damn thing he could do about it.

    Secondly, I think he was having a disconnect of sorts because of his political world view. He believes that anything government attempts to do will be botched and the result will be wasted money and stifled opportunity. Whenever a program appears to work really well and have many positive outcomes it causes a panic and forces him to confront his beliefs in an uncomfortable way. It's almost like an intervention. But now let's get to the heart of the matter. Why should any of us support the "Cash for Clunkers" program? Why should we subsidize one another's automobiles? Here's the list I came up with. Feel free to add the ones I didn't think of.
    1) Economic Stimulation- the sale of that car is going to provide income for the dealership, it's employees (sales, maintenance, reception, managers), the manufacturer, their employees, banks, advertisers, media, scrap yards and many others, and far in excess of the government's $4500.00 rebate. The stimulus is actually amplified by the consumer!
    2) Safety- the new cars being bought are smaller and hence less likely to kill you if you collide with them. Also, because they are newer, they tend to have better safety features than the clunkers that they replaced. That means the people inside will be safer. So they won't be as expensive to insure (which will help decrease your premiums) nor will their injuries be as expensive to treat (again, theoretically, these saving should be passed on). Fewer injured people mean a more productive workforce (it's important to use free market arguments when debating the uber-conservatives, no?)
    3) Security- more efficient cars mean less dependence on foreign oil. This is another way to get your rightist acquaintances attention. I try to remind them that if we weren't addicted to oil that we would care about what goes on in Iraq about as much as we care about what goes on in Burma. (Now I personally think we should pay a little more attention to places like Burma, but most of the people who I will be using these points on won't. Anyway, we can't pay attention to the Burma's of the world, because Iraq and Afghanistan have sucked all the air out of the room. But I digress.)
    4) Environmental- OK, this is where you'll lose the hard core right, but they need to hear it- these new cars will cut down on emissions- less greenhouse gasses. Also, less smog. Nobody likes smog, right?
    5) Efficiency- Don't forget, the average car being purchased under this program is 60% more fuel efficient than the clunker. That's quite a savings at the pump. But much of these savings will be spent somewhere else on things that we may get more return on than fuel. Newer, faster computers? Education? Health care? All of these things add more to the economy than what we burn in our engines. Money we save there can be turned into brainpower.
    6) Psychology- One of the main reasons for an economic downturn (indeed, some argue, the only reason) is that people are worried about the future. But this is very much a group psychology. We are worried about our collective futures. So if people see other people making purchases, they tend to think "Hey, that guy's not too worried. Maybe things won't be so bad". And they loosen up the chains on their wallet a little bit.
    OK, there's my six. I'm sure I overlooked some big ones, so help me out. Two billion more is being fed into the program and there will be more wailing and gnashing of teeth from the far right. Let's have our rebuttal ready.
    (cross posted at Daily Kos)
     
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  2. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    Quite frankly, I wouldn't waste any brain power even thinking about his reaction. Who cares? You dumped a vehicle with virtually no resale value, for one with excellent resale and reliability

    I suppose I could pop a vein screaming "Wth should my tax money bail out the (Insert: big criminally run banks, domestic car companies, home builders, etc)"

    Enjoy the new car. Ignore the asshat you unfortunately have to work with. Sometimes heavy drinking works too, and I always try that first as a rule of thumb
     
  3. apriusfan

    apriusfan New Member

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    +1. Although I could see this thread being moved to FHoPol rather quickly if some of the resident neocons start to weigh in.

    To the OP - enjoy your new Prius and be secure in your decision to use C4C to help your purchase process.
     
  4. turapeach

    turapeach Member

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    I affectionately refer to myself as a "liberal commie," but I still don't think this program makes sense. It is ridiculous that they excluded cars over 25 years old, and it is absurd to think that destroying perfectly good vehicles to be replaced with other vehicles that get as little as 4 MPG (or in some cases 2 MPG) better than the previous vehicle is good for the environment. BUT - that being said, I traded in my beloved 1991 Toyota Previa with about 175,000 miles on it on my new Prius - so apparently I can be bought - for only $4500. :evil:
     
  5. finman

    finman Senior Member

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    I didn't realize a Previa attained 46 MPG. (50 being the 2010 Prius EPA rating, math gives 50-4=46, your assessment of 4 MPG improvement). Some will be trading up quite a bit, some not so much, but other factors come into play.

    What other criteria are we not reviewing? It's not just
    MPG! See the OP for some great reasons to get people motivated to greener transport. Status quo will not get us very far. Change needs to happen now.
     
  6. Bica2go

    Bica2go New Member

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    At the risk of crossing political lines.. I get distressed by the talk that any program that helps one group (like CFC) is automatically a bad program as its using tax payers dollars. What do we pay our taxes for? I'd rather be paying less in taxes, but the argument should be made about the program specifically. I think CFC will only be a short term boost to the economy and that some of the rules for mileage increases could have been better, but Dianne Feinstien got into the game in June rather than January when the discussions about the program began. That said, the boost will have repercussions with long term benefits (safety, pollution, oil consumption).

    I wish people would recognize that we're in the pond together (US) and the end game should be what's best for all which means making choices that aren't always to your individual benefit. That said, I do agree there's an awful lot of pork in DC!

    Disclaimer: I traded in a 1998 Ford Explorer for my Prius under CFC.
     
  7. mgb4tim

    mgb4tim Noob

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    do their kids go to state-system colleges? They are subsidized....same type of "welfare check" that we CFC folks got.
     
  8. tleonhar

    tleonhar Senior Member

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    Congrats on your new car! :)
    One more point you can bring up to the detracters, figure a new car costs on the average $20,000 (for easy figuring). So for the $4,500 the gov gives, that is matched by $15,500 in private money given to the auto industry. This will boost production, keep more people working (and paying taxes), and for the two companies that received federal loans, those loans will be paid back quicker.