Can someone clear up this "We were founded as a christian nation" idea for me?

We weren't founded as a Christian nation, but one of religious freedom. Jefferson in particular was a deist. With his scientific bent, Jefferson sought to organize his thoughts on religion. He rejected the superstitions and mysticism of Christianity and even went so far as to edit the gospels, removing the miracles and mysticism of Jesus (see The Jefferson Bible) leaving only what he deemed the correct moral philosophy of Jesus. Jefferson aimed at laissez-faire liberalism in the name of individual freedom, He felt that any form of government control, not only of religion, but of individual mercantilism consisted of tyranny. He thought that our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry.

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity."
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

"But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

 

The words, "under God," did not appear in the Pledge of Allegiance until 1954, when Congress, under McCarthyism, inserted them. Likewise, "In God We Trust" was absent from paper currency before 1956. It appeared on some coins earlier, as did other sundry phrases, such as "Mind Your Business." The original U.S. motto, chosen by John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson, is E Pluribus Unum ("Of Many, One"), celebrating plurality, not theocracy.

If the Christian Right Extremists wish to return this country to its beginnings, so be it... because it was a climate of Freethought. The Founders were students of the European Enlightenment. Half a century after the establishment of the United States, clergymen complained that no president up to that date had been a Christian. In a sermon that was reported in newspapers, Episcopal minister Bird Wilson of Albany, New York, protested in October 1831: "Among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism." The attitude of the age was one of enlightened reason, tolerance, and free thought. The Founding Fathers would turn in their graves if the Christian Extremists had their way with this country.

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit." - Thomas Paine

 

As previously mentioned, most of our founding fathers were Deists or Unitarians. I too am rankled every time people call for a "...return to the Christian values the country was founded upon." It is stated out of either ignorance or revisionist history. It also bothers me when people equate God with religion. The separation of Church and State was to prevent the government from sanctioning any specific religion. It does not mean that the government isn't allowed to accept the existence of a God.

There is not a lot of difference between religion and politics. Both attempt to gain and maintain power by controlling the masses (no pun intended.)

 

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit." - Thomas Paine
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Being Jewish, I can say for myself (and probably other American Jews) that we are not trying to monopolize anything. We just want to be left alone and free to worship a G-d we feel created all the beautiful natural things we see around us, and who freed our biblical ancestors from slavery. We just want to be left alone, and preferably w/o Christians reminding us constantly that we are going to hell when we die, or radical Muslims who see us as a constant threat to their survival.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GeoDosch @ Aug 19 2007, 04:50 PM) [snapback]498863[/snapback]</div>

Nope, not so. Only a few were non-Christian Deists. Most were members of orthodox Christian denominations, in good standing, and were buried in consecrated ground.

That being said, some of the Christians were Deists, like Ben Franklin. He was a thoughtful and provocative man, was a contributing member of Christ Church in Philadelphia, is buried in their cemetery, and contributed to itinerant preachers coming through town. In his autobiography, he mentions a dialog with a Deist, and he said he kept exclaiming "I believe that too!" Like many men of the day, he identified himself as both a Christian and a Deist.

I think Thomas Paine was an atheist (or at least agnostic), and Thomas Jefferson was probably a Unitarian late in life, and agnostic prior to his later years. Very few of the 200 or so men considered "founders" fit into those categories.

The most powerful thing you can say about our disestablishment of a state religion is not that it was done by unbelievers, but that it was done by Christians. Even the most devout Christians supported disestablishment. (They did fight a bit about it at the state level, but every one of the states eventually disestablished their state religions by the 1830's, IIRC ... MA was the last to sever ties to a church).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(brad34695 @ Aug 19 2007, 05:00 PM) [snapback]498867[/snapback]</div>

FWIW, the founders had a very tolerant view of Jews. George Washington visited Newport, RI, in 1790, and the Jewish congregation there presented him with a congratulatory letter. President Washington replied:

Jews emigrated to these shores for the same reasons many of their fellow Americans did, to escape religious persecution, for more opportunity, and for the freedom to worship as they pleased. The promise of liberty and freedom has not always been fulfilled, but it is a goal for which we must continue striving.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GeoDosch @ Aug 19 2007, 07:50 PM) [snapback]498863[/snapback]</div>

To be historically accurate, it wasn't called Unitarianism back then, it was called Transcendentalism.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Aug 19 2007, 08:52 PM) [snapback]498880[/snapback]</div>

There is no such thing as a Christian Deist. The point of Deism is the rejection of organized religion. Most Deists are tolerant of the practice of religion by others, but they themselves do not believe in them. To say someone was a Christian Deist is like saying someone was a meat-eating vegan.

Franklin was a Deist, though attended churches of various denominations for political and business reasons. Many of his clients were devout Christians, so he attended church to keep in their good graces. So, for obvious reasons, he wasn't outspoken about his true beliefs.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Aug 19 2007, 08:52 PM) [snapback]498880[/snapback]</div>

Thomas Paine was certainly not an atheist nor agnostic. Since you're obviously not aware, he wrote the book "The Age of Reason", which attacks the religious institutions, and put forth the principles of Deism. Again, you are showing the classic confusion that someone refuting religion must not believe in God. If you read his book, he makes very strong arguments for the existence of God.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Aug 19 2007, 08:52 PM) [snapback]498880[/snapback]</div>

Do you have any basis for that statement, other than it helps your point? Few scholars disagree with the fact that Jefferson was a Deist.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Aug 19 2007, 08:52 PM) [snapback]498880[/snapback]</div>

Again, there is the old misconception that if you're not a Christian, then you must be an 'unbeliever'. An unbeliever in what? The obvious implication is God. But it's not necessary to be a Christian, or Muslim or Jew or any other religious alignment to still believe in God.

 

While the U.S. was not founded as a "Christian" nation, and I detest those that say it was, the U.S. was founded on religious beliefs, specifically the freedom of religion not from it. The concerted effort by liberals to remove religion from the operation of the country has resulted in the backlash and rise of the religious fundamentalism that the liberals claim to be combating. This is actually good for the liberal battle since liberals never want to solve any problem or issue as then the liberal wouldn’t be needed.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Devil's Advocate @ Aug 20 2007, 01:12 PM) [snapback]499228[/snapback]</div>

Freedom OF religion = freedom FROM religion.

Seriously, how can I be free to practice my religion, if I'm not free from the direct influence of yours?

This has nothing to do with religion vs. atheism. It has to do with religious freedom.

And, if the atheists benefit too, well, so much the better.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Aug 20 2007, 11:46 AM) [snapback]499245[/snapback]</div>

Actually, The pilgrims did not leave from England to America, they left Belguim, were they we free to practice their own religion free from the English government. However, the felt that there was too much freedom and would lead to their children being confused about their beliefs. Therefore, they went to america where they could be free to practice and yet not have to tolerate anyone else. It is also true the some colonies attacked one another dressed as indians to incite turmoil, and hopefully force the other colonists to pack up and leave.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pre-us @ Aug 20 2007, 03:19 PM) [snapback]499278[/snapback]</div>

I think you are confused. They settled in Holland first.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Devil's Advocate @ Aug 20 2007, 11:12 AM) [snapback]499228[/snapback]</div>

This assertion by the religious always makes me shudder. What, exactly, do they mean by it? Do they mean belief in their god is optional, but belief in some god is mandatory, presumably enforced by the gov't? Do they believe gov't must incorporate some kind of religious considerations in its legislations, judgements and executive actions?

Thee who make that assertion, explain it.

Mark Baird
Alameda CA

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GeoDosch @ Aug 19 2007, 06:34 PM) [snapback]498907[/snapback]</div>

You are probably right about Thomas Paine not being an atheist, but being a deist. I have not read much of Paine beyond the pamphlet. However, I have read Franklin, and many other histories of the colonial period (including source documents written during that time), and the majority of the founders were not Deists but were influenced by enlightenment ideals and sympathetic to the ideas put forth by Deists. Franklin was a life member of Christ Church in Philadelphia, where his purchased pew was in the front row, and he attended regularly. Sociologically speaking, a Christian is a person who is a member of a Christian church, or a person a Christian church claims as being a member due to their own standards, and Franklin, as well as Adams, Morris, etc. were Christians.

While Wikipedia is not authoritative, this excerpt from Wikipedia comports with my understanding:

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism (except that I believe Adams was a Congregationalist)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GeoDosch @ Aug 19 2007, 06:34 PM) [snapback]498907[/snapback]</div>

Refer to the letters between Jefferson and Adams late in their lives, where Jefferson speaks very highly of the Unitarian services he attended with Joseph Priestly, Jared Sparks and other Unitarians. He did not join a Unitarian church, but in his letters to Adams, he speaks very highly of the Unitarians and states, at one point, that if there was a church he would join, it would be the Unitarians. I cannot find the cite now, but it may be either Garry Wills or Pauline Maier who state that he may have become a Unitarian before his death.

I don't think he ever described himself as a Deist, and certainly did not join any of the Deist Societies.

In regards to the term "Christian Deist", it is only with our modern war between ideas that we separate Deism out into another belief entirely. If you look at the writings of men like Locke (obviously a Christian, yet often cited as a Deist) and especially Matthew Tindal, you see that deism and Christianity were not considered mutally exclusive, especially by the deists themselves. Again, from Wikipedia:

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GeoDosch @ Aug 19 2007, 06:34 PM) [snapback]498907[/snapback]</div>

I have never stated that, and do not believe that. In fact, my argument is more inclusive. I accept Jefferson, Adams, Morris, Jay and the other founders at their word. I don't apply a narrow doctrinal test to their writings to consign them to one pigeon hole or another, especially the pigeon holes we have created in the intervening 200 years.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Aug 20 2007, 12:46 PM) [snapback]499245[/snapback]</div>

Following that logic, would freedom OF speech = freedom FROM speech? Freedom OF press = freedom FROM press? Freedom OF thought = freedom FROM thought? Seems a bit like doublespeak to me.

I'd suggest that freedom of speech means being able to say things that some people (especially the government) aren't comfortable with. Should we restrict free speech for fear that a person's idea might make another uncomfortable? I'd say not, and I'd likewise claim you can't preserve freedom of religion by restricting religious practice on the fear that a religious display will offend someone.

By the way, fshagan is right. While not all the founding fathers were Christians (most notably Thomas Paine), the majority were in some shape or fashion, and early American political thought was tightly intermingled with Christianity.

Not wanting to start a quote war, but as an example: George Washington (called a deist by a previous poster) claimed in his farewell adress to the nation "It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible". You see these sort of themes speckled throughout early American political thought.

I'm not sure it's correct to say America was "founded as a Christian nation", but it's pretty clear our founding fathers had a very different idea of religion in politics than we do today.

 

I'm of the belief that the founding fathers were mostly concerned with politics corrupting their religion, as opposed to religion corrupting the politics (today's concern). A lot of the early settlers came to America as a way to escape their previous governments which actively worked against their religion, if it was not the accepted "state religion". It was a pretty radical idea at the time to seperate church and state. They'd always been so intertwined or even one and the same. Different factions of Christianity were fighting against each other over the littlest disagreements and using the power of government to impose religion. This is what they sought to avoid in America. I don't think they knew the world would be SOOO much more diverse hundred of years later, with Islam, Hindus, athiests, Wiccans, etc. It's a good thing they did set out to allow religious freedom, or we'd have a lot more political problems regarding religion.

 

Theologians speculate that there are approximately 10,000 different religious sects operating in the world today. The one commonality is that they all think the other 9,999 are wrong. As Mark Twain once said, "Man is the religious animal. He is the only religious animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion –- several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat, if his theology isn't straight. He has made a graveyard of the globe in trying his honest best to smooth his brother's path to happiness and heaven."