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"Bell the Hybrid" - 111th Congress

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Main Forum' started by bwilson4web, Oct 17, 2009.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    The current efforts to legislate noise makers on hybrids are H.R. 734 and S. 841. Both bills are flawed because they legislate one one solution:
    "SEC. 3. Findings.
    (8) ... require that vehicles emit a minimum level of sound designed to alert ll pedestrians, especially bind pedestrians, to the presence of such vehicles."
    If they were changed to:
    "SEC. 3. Findings.
    (8) ... require that vehicles use any technical system that may include emitting a minimum level of sound designed to alert ll pedestrians, especially bind pedestrians, to the presence of such vehicles and reduce all accidents."​
    It would fix the legislation so it would address the real problem, pedestrian and accident deaths, and uses the full might or our intellect and skills. But sound has been tried for 100 years and continues to fail.

    There are more more errors in these bills but the "Finding" are what directs the allowed solution. However, the inflated claims in the bills and by their advocates leave them vulnerable to the facts and data ... the truth. That is the most powerful argument of all ... if we share it.

    The most frequent and inflated claim is our hybrids are deadly but the facts and data show otherwise:The goal is to take any claims of "deadly" and "fatal" away from the honorable competition. What would help would be to make sure this URL is shared with reporters or their editors who try to claim our hybrid cars are 'deadly' or 'fatal' to pedestrians. I have no problem with the advocates making fact based claims but any words claiming "fatal" or "deadly" need to be corrected. There is no evidence of elevated fatalities or deaths associated with our Prius, 2/3ds of all hybrids on the road.

    An approach would be to make sure this URL shows up in as many web pages, blogs and web-based comments as possible. This increases the Google ranking ... increasing the probability of a Google hit on a search. Google can be 'our friend.'

    I don't look forward to this by any stretch of the imagination. I would rather take instruments to our Prius, soldering iron and boards. Product improvement is a heck of a lot more interesting but in this case, our Congress, our representatives, are about to legislate a mistake and legislate a placebo.

    Since their invention, automobiles have made noise and killed pedestrians. We have run this experiment for over 100 years and the results are the same. Adding noise makers to cars is running the same, deadly experiment and expecting a different result ... it is insanity to legislate the same experiment and expect a different result.

    This legislation could bring new technology, accident avoidance systems, and take a bite out of both pedestrian deaths, 4,200 per year, and car-to-car accidents. That is the direction legislation needs to go ... not legislating the same more noise that has failed so many dead pedestrians for the past 100 years and continues to fail today.

    Bob Wilson

    ps. Christopher Hogan did the initial analysis in 2008 for which we owe a great debt of gratitude. I'm not trying to stand in his shoes as much as take some of the heat ... someone has to do it. It is my hope he may post his 2008 report with a URL ... misery loves company.
     
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  2. asj2009

    asj2009 Member

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    It's called being courteous of pedestrians, and pedestrians being wary in parking lots. Small car noises won't help if the driver's being an a**

    These legislators should stop simply reacting and actually RTF technical reports.

    I'll be sure to add that URL to some of the websites I administer....
     
  3. radioprius1

    radioprius1 Climate Conspirisist

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    I agree. Don't modify my vehicle because other people aren't looking out for vehicles or are too busy text messaging. Also if there's a fear of blind people being hit, just chain the blind up in a big group hospital and don't let them out walking (kidding David)
     
  4. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    What's the big deal? Here in Washington State, 'accidentally' killing a pedestrian or bicyclist is a fairly minor traffic infraction, no big deal. A simple drunk driving stop, without injury or property damage, is far far more serious. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

    Because of some very infuriating tragedies with essentially no consequences, the local bicycle club is turning this into a hot issue.
     
  5. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    And a 'land shark' chimes in:

    New York Personal Injury Lawyer Warns Pedestrians To Watch For Quieter Hybrid Vehicles

    Ambulance chasers, start your engines.

    Bob Wilson
     
  6. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    Based on local experience, our hybrids will need to be LOUDER than freight train horns in order to be heard by some teenagers gabbing on cell phones or listening to portable music players. And these freight trains are already banned from using their LOUD horns inside some city limits.
     
  7. RonH

    RonH Member

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    The NHTSA is here: http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811204.PDF
    Basically, they sliced and diced the state accident data and found some subsets with statistically significant differences at the 95% level. Kinda low to go off the deep end. The report even recommended getting more data before panicking. But we're talking journalists and lawyers here.
     
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  8. jdcollins5

    jdcollins5 Senior Member

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    I totally agree. I was making a left turn at a very busy intersection with double turn lanes. A college student walked out of a McDonalds with his stereo head set on and began walking across the intersection cross walk. There were at least six or eight cars turning left. We all had to wait in the middle of the intersection for this idiot to finally get out of the cross walk. These were cars, trucks, SUV's plus my Prius. What kind of sound device is needed for this situation ?
     
  9. bighouse

    bighouse Active Member

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    I think someone should introduce a bill to help end NOISE pollution, requiring ICE engines to be muffled to the point of total silence.

    Seems like a DUMB idea to try to bell a Prius and doesn't really get to the root of any accidents. Why can't we just train the youth and remind the rest of us something my momma told me when I was 4 or 5... "LOOK BOTH WAYS BEFORE YOU CROSS THE STREET!"
     
  10. SlowTurd

    SlowTurd I LIKE PRIUS'S

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    how about a bill to prevent pedestrians from looking down, talking on their cell phones, and texting while walking?
     
  11. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    WHEN NUMBERS MAKE NO SENSE

    "Incident of Pedestrian and Bicyclist Crashes by Hybrid Electric Passenger Vehicles," DOT HS 811 204, Sept. 2009:
    I recently learned the data table of HEVs does NOT include the Corolla and this sentence is in error.

    Recently, I've been looking at the Prius fleet data and fatal accidents for the USA. But something about the HEV counts didn't make sense for this 12 State data. Looking at "Traffic Safety Facts 2007 Data", DOT HS 810 993, table 2 we have a column titled "Registered Motor Vehicles (Thousands)" that shows the number by year, 2000-2007. So I put this table together:

    Column 1 Column 2 Column 3 Column 4 Column 5 Column 6 Column 7 Column 8 Column 9
    0 year USA vehicles Prius sales Prius total Prius %
    1 2000 217 028 000 5 562 5 562 0.003%
    2 2001 221 230 000 15 556 21 118 0.010%
    3 2002 225 685 000 20 119 41 237 0.018%
    4 2003 230 633 000 24 627 65 864 0.029%
    5 2004 237 949 000 53 991 119 855 0.050%
    6 2005 245 628 000 107 897 227 752 0.093%
    7 2006 251 423 000 106 971 334 723 0.133%
    8 2007 257 708 000 181 221 515 944 0.200%
    9
    10 ICE Vehicles HEV vehicles % HEV
    11 559 703 8 387 1.476%
    12
    13 ratio
    14 7.37
    .
    Note that this is Prius sales and does not include any Prius losses, ~3%, per year, worst case.

    This data suggests that if the Prius were the only hybrid, they would be more than seven times more accident prone than ordinary ICE vehicles. Now one obvious fact is this report cherry picked the reference vehicles, they did not include all vehicle accidents. So the smaller set of 'reference' vehicles makes the hybrids in that set seem more accident prone.

    I looked at the December 2007 distribution of sales of selected models from the "Dashboard" report:
    Column 1 Column 2 Column 3 Column 4
    0 model sales percent
    1 Toyota Corolla 0 0%
    2 Toyota Camry 4 959 22.0%
    3 Toyota Prius 14 212 63.0%
    4 Honda Civic 3 223 14.3%
    5 Honda Accord 150 0.7%
    6 Total 22 544 100%
    .
    Now the following is 'back of the envelope' numbers but if we take the Prius as a general index of total hybrid sales:
    1.59*.63 = 100.2% of all hybrids in study
    1.59*.002 = 0.32% of fleet percentage that are hybrids

    1.476% / 0.32% = 4.612 times more likely to have a hybrid in an incident
    Again, this is compared to the total number of vehicles, not the cherry picked, subset. If our hybrids are more than four times more likely to be involved in an accident, that would be terrible. Folks, something isn't right in the HEV accident numbers in this report. You don't suppose that they actually counted some of the Corollas as a hybrid?

    I'm thinking about submitting an FOIA request to have to the "8,387 HEVs and 559,703 ICE" broken out by the types of vehicles. If the Corolla count in "HEVs" comes out zero, no problem. But I'm also curious about the non-ICE vehicle distribution. The reason is we can look at these ratios, they are large numbers, and using absolute vehicle counts, begin to understand how this set of vehicles compares to the total fleet numbers. Actually, the FOIA can also ask, "What was the total count of all vehicle accidents in the 12 State data that provided useful VINs?"

    Bob Wilson
     
  12. donee

    donee New Member

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    Hi All,

    The problem is that the blind, and or visually preoccupied do not stop in their tracks when extraneous enviormental noise sources make their perception of dangerous sounds useless.

    If anything, the requirement should be to reduce the noise from the exhausts of other vehicles, not increase the noise from hybrids, and the meriad of similarly quiet vehicles (cars, bycycles, scooters).
     
  13. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I just got my C-SPAN notice:
    C-SPAN Daily Alert
    Programming Information for Wed. 10/28 - Thurs. 10/29, 2009

    Washington Journal Highlights

    * Ray LaHood, Transportation Secretary
    * Daniel Yergin, Author, “The Prizeâ€
    * Sen. Jeanne Shaheen, (D-NH)
    * Sen. Mike Crapo, (R-ID)
    * Stephen Gandel, Time Magazine, Senior Economic Writer

    BACKGROUND:

    • Former representative Ray LaHood was a cosponsor for the original "Bell the Hybrid" act.
    • Recently the NHTSA came out with the comparison study "Incident of Pedestrian and Bicyclist Crashes by Hybrid Electric Passenger Vehicles" (DOT HS 811 204), which is being misquoted when someone claims hybrids are twice as dangerous as ordinary cars.
      • There is no vehicle count in the report by state so no one knows what the actual risk of a Prius is versus any of the gas vehicles ... it is a shape, a profile of accidents, not an absolute risk by type of vehicle. Ask him, "How many accidents per hybrid car or hybrid car mile?" He won't have an answer or if he does, it is likely 'made up.'
    • There is the Toyota floor mat business, a hot and popular topic.
    • Then there is my analysis of Prius Fatal Accidents showing half the rate compared to the NHTSA published averages per vehicle per 100 million miles using the Fatality Accident Reporting System (FARS.)
    So those that have a little time to spend on C-SPAN Thursday morning, it might be fun. <grins> ... Darn, I'll have to get a Twitter account too! <GRRRRRR>

    Bob Wilson
     
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  14. bps

    bps Active Member

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    I agree with what a few others have said: people need to quit texting and start paying attention while they are walking.

    Bryan
     
  15. Slovewell

    Slovewell New Member

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    At lower speeds there some non-hybrids that are very quiet. How many time have you walled by a car and realized it was running. Maybe, all cars should have big flashing lights, like the police, to make sure people see them. I don't think the Prius is the issue because there probably is some sort of ambient noise, like a lawn mower, that drowns out any cars noises. There is a very good chance that some pedestrian accidents were do to their arrogance, feeling like it's up to the car to avoid them. Have you ever been to a store and watched people just walk in font of a moving car because they think they have the right of way. I think some of them deserve to get hit. Pedestrians have lost respect for the vehicles and the danger they pose.
     
  16. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    It wasn't until I checked the C-SPAN program before "Morning Journal" that I realized that 'texting' and other distractions while driving would be the topic. This is important in its own right so it didn't make sense to call-in. Yet a motorcyclist called in against helmet laws and another caller against mandatory seat-belts.

    I don't like to 'ambush' people any more than I appreciate being ambushed. Calling in about "Bell the Hybrid" was not appropriate this morning ... but I did have the numbers on 'speed dial.'

    Bob Wilson
     
  17. patsparks

    patsparks An Aussie perspective

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    I passed a blind guy and a blind woman yesterday near the blind school and no one was even injured!
     
  18. RoyThePriusGuy

    RoyThePriusGuy New Member

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    They were deaf so it really didn't matter.
     
  19. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    There has been a spat of activity on HR 734 with the addition of more cosponsors, now 155. This is what I would expect when action on a bill is likely to come up. Also, given the recent 'run away car' press, no doubt it is stirring up interest in a bill to "Bell the Hybrid" as giving the appearance of 'doing something.'

    Keep your powder dry but a letter to your representative is a good idea and a draft for your local news paper and broadcast stations.

    Bob Wilson
     
  20. Arjin Combs

    Arjin Combs New Member

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    Belling the hybrid will not really save lives. For example, a blind person crossing a parking lot, and why, they probably aren't going to thier car, will be inundated with many noises, in addition to a hybrids proposed bell. They would likely have trouble with all the noises coming from different directions. I still believe, it is the driver's responsibility, in any form of transportation, to look out for all pedestrians or those on bikes. If, down the road, my newly purchased Prius had some sort of bell, I'd deactivite it or turn it off, just like the current inside car back-up beep :)