Featured Autoline reports on SAE PHEV conference

I'd say that has no place on the forum. The guy says that he knew nothing about PHEVs until he went to a conference the previous week. Then he spouted a bunch of unattributed remarks that he overheard, but could not quote the speakers nor identify them. He makes a big deal about a 50 mile battery being as expensive as a traditional BEV. That requires two assumptions. First was that he ignored the fact that dozens of PHEV models were the same cost and design, and the same for all BEVs. They are not. Second assumption was that everyone NEEDS a bigger battery despite the many testimonies on this forum that many Prius Prime owners seldom exceeded the range provided by the battery. The video was basically hogwash.

I liked the one that said that by 2025 it would be cheaper to make "a BEV" than it was to make "a ICE". There was no identifying what BEV and ICE he was talking about.

My experience is far different from Bob. But then again, I use it as it was designed to be used, and I don't worry about things like hunting for fast DC charging and searching for free low speed charging to get the range to reach a fast DC source.

Funny, I see this drivel from Bob daily. No one does that much work to cover his bad decisions without "looking back"... If only he had some idea of why the Prius was designed the way that it was, he'd understand why his wife is putting out huge amounts of pollution every time she runs the range extender on her car compared to the Prius that he sold (traded in) at such a steep discount.

It's too bad that Bob is so vocal, spreading so much disinformation so often.

 

Sigh, Yet another home made chart without explanation of what the abbreviations are supposed to be, nor the sources of the information. The chart did not even include the 2014 i3 Rex, substituting a model that is made differently and with a bigger battery, etc. So full of BS that it's not worth trying to see where you divided by zero this time.

 

one thing few consider is that a short range phev will often get recharged multiple times per day. that's got to be hard on the charge socket. and your EVSE's nozzle too.

 

We haven't experienced any issues with our Clipper Creek Level 2 charger and car plug. Our vehicle has around 45,000 miles on it and is a 2019 with probably 75% of these miles in EV mode. Our vehicle is always plugged in if it isn't being driven so the amount of use this charger gets is very high.

Your point is important, a lot of PHEV owners will be using their chargers almost continuously. It is important to get a safe, reliable high-quality charger that is UL listed.

A level 2 charger replacement plug end is not that expensive and a car charger port should be relatively inexpensive for a diy er.

 

Requiring a minimum of 50-mile ev range in a PHEV for a subsidy is frankly ridiculous. Vast majority of drivers worldwide drive significantly less than that many miles each day. Batteries are in short supply, are heavy, and expensive. People seem to forget this very important fact. The whole point of a PHEV is to be able to drive mostly on EV with a significantly smaller battery than one found in a full EV. And to be able to do so without breaking the bank.

 

Those are your lifestyle prerequisites. It sounds like you found just the car for them.

Other lifestyle prerequisites are different and other vehicles fit their needs perfectly.

 

i think toyota says their evse is good for 10,000 charges.

my aftermarket L2 is 10 years old and is at an estimated 7-8,000 charges

 

I totally agree "some" do this. It's yet another feature of dual-fuels and I don't begrudge folks that do. Just like I don't begrudge folks that use the totally unnecessary (IMO) sub 5.0 sec 0-60 times performance of their choice.

If some PHEV's aren't plugging in, how would increasing EV range (more weight, size and costs) solve this?

Honda and GM basically did this with the Clarity and Volt. Too small of an ICE leads to excessive high-rpm running trying to keep up with power demands (low battery, high speeds, mountains) that destroys the NVH of the EV design. Owners found workarounds not fixes since it's a fundamental design issue. The severe limitations of the 3-rex (rhymes with t-rex!) are well known keeping it a niche seller. No thanks.

 

Last I read, the problem with PHEV in England is one of their own making. There article talked about how the British made some areas of certain large cities off limits to cars with the exception of plug-ins. The objective was to decrease smog in the metropolis.

They failed to specify that the car must actually run on electricity the whole time that the car was within the city. They also failed to specify a required level of efficiency for the cars.

This resulted in people buying the less expensive PHEVs, then running them on whatever power source was most convenient or least expensive.

Last time I looked in on the subject, they were talking about adding software to the cars that would enforce a geo-fence which would prevent a car from entering the "clean air" areas unless they were running on battery power. Imagine commuting 50 miles to London, only to find that you aren't allowed to reach your company garage to recharge?

 

i expect you would already know not to go

 

Yeah, you'd think so, wouldn't you? But that was one scenario that was put forth as an argument against using geo-fencing to enforce zero emissions traffic.

 

possibly by the people who want to go, regardless of the car they drive, or the intent of the pollution mitigation code

 

ummmm - first - it was only the GenI Volt that over-revs. GenII doesn't.
Over Rev? Ever gunned it in a prius? never mind that, or a Highlander? How bout any Lexus hybrid. our RX400h was a real screamer. same with our V6 hybrid Chrysler minivan.
I just PRAY the gen5 pri can be as over-Rev free as Gen II Volt.
.

 

Yup, they heard (pun intended) the complaints.

The scenario runs MUCH longer and louder than a hybrid. I speak from experience.

 

The concern is more with the wear on the battery. The pack has a limited number full discharges it can perform before it is no longer usable as a traction pack. The buffers mean it isn't seeing full discharges, which extends the effective battery life to hopefully longer than what the manufacturer considers lifetime. But it is still a limited number of cycles.

Suppose a daily use of 50 miles. A 25 mile pack charged twice per day will last half as long as a 50 mile pack charged once.

This concern is likely only for a small subset of private owners. It would more likely be one for fleet use. But if you are thinking plug replacement when making a purchase...

He stated EPA metrics right above the chart. If you have the patience, you can access the data that is used for the window stickers. Assembling 2014 and 2019 cars together must have been past Bob's patience for the post. The bigger battery in the 2019 i3 isn't going to make a difference in the hybrid mode test results here. The EPA isn't going to hack away the CARB hobble and run it with a full battery.

Familiar with the EPA test cycles, the chart doesn't need much explanation. The THC through me for a moment, but Bob summarized the results under the chart.

I'm curious as to how the Prius Prime can have two to three times the hydrocarbon emissions of the i3 REx.

The video stated it was policy in California, or maybe being considered.

Which state has longest commute? Here's avg commute length by state
Using results from auto insurance purchases eliminates those short enough to not need a car from pulling the average down. Then most of the other hits for commute distance were talking in time.

A 50 mile requirement also avoids the issue of a subsidy making a shorter range PHEV less expensive than the NoPlug model, which does lead to people buying them with no intention of plugging in. Plus, power PHEVs using the battery and motor to bump up total performance tend to have smallest packs required while not having much better fuel economy on gas than the non-hybrid.

Except for the slight possibility that people only wanting the car for HOV access, it doesn't. I think CARB wants 50 miles because a single will cover over half the commutes of people driving to work. If a PHEV cost is in line with that of an engine upgrade, it doesn't need a subsidy.

I think the only solution to PHEVs not charging is to make public charging plentiful enough that it becomes more convenient than going to a gas station.

Subsidies for getting the cars sold should assume the worse case if the car manufacturer can supply proof that the cars are being charged. That change was made to CAFE for flexfuel models.

The issue across Europe was that there were tax incentives for businesses to purchase PHEVs in order to lower carbon emissions. Many did so in the form of company cars, and then gave them to employees that didn't have charging access. Some of those companies would also only reimburse the employee for liquid, not electric, fuel costs.

Incentivizing PHEVs faces the same issue the US had with incentivizing flexfuels; getting the cars on the road without encouraging the use of the alternative fuel doesn't result in the switch to the new fuel.

The emission free zones in EU cities isn't for carbon emissions, but for smog. Some cities have seen days as bad as 1940's LA in the past few years. I agree with
@bisco about who is complaining. They don't want to be bothered to change their ways, but if the smog issue isn't fixed, they'll be dealing with cities banning personal cars completely in areas.