As Hybrid Cars Multiply, So do Carpooling Gripes

It seems to me that a compromise might make more sense than to just drop the program. Just as we currently have both HOV-2 and HOV-3 lanes on different roads it might make sense to vary the hybrid allowances accordingly -- allow 2 in a hybrid on an HOV-3 road while allowing 1 for the HOV-2 roads. And on the flip side some of the more extreme gas guzzlers could require additional passengers.

 

Hmmm, novel idea! Driving an H2 solo?? Take the surface streets, interstate requires a minimum occupancy rate of 2 for all commuter vehicles over 4000 pounds GVW. Of course, then it would probably get 6 MPG and pollute even MORE!! :-(

Or come up with an easy calculation:
Assuming someone decided the 'average' HOV2 vehicle has 2 people and gets 22.5 MPG to arrive at their 45 MPG value for a solo hybrid driver:

Make HOV2 lanes require a minimum of 45 passenger miles per gallon regardless of the vehicle type. HOV3 lanes - 67.5 PMPG.

H2 on the highway maybe 9 MPG. Max seats - 5, PMPG: 45. OK, you can go in the HOV2 lane ONLY if ALL seats are in use by real live people. HOV3 lane? Too bad, so sad. :lol:

Plus, the state government can make a bunch of money selling HOV2 and HOV3 stickers. Maybe a Prius "leaf car" shape with the minimum number of passengers in the middle. Blue for HOV2 and green for HOV3.

Of course now it is getting complicated since HOV2 and 3 have no meaning. We'll have to rename them the "blue leaf car" and "green leaf car" lanes. ;-)

 

I would be very interested in beginning a grassroots campaign with VA legislators in urging them to extend/reauthorize the law permitting hybrids in HOV.

There is 18 months to get this done. We need to get started!

If there is already one underway, how can I help out???

Let's chat.

 

i think the hov lanes should have a combined mph limitation. So if you have to achieve ... let's say 40mpg.. most cars need 2 people. Suv's like the H3 would need 4 people. It would make it a fair lane. Buses will be excluded though since they do public good all day long.

 

... should have read above.. lol

 

Odd how taking advantage of a deal sometimes makes people regret offering the deal.

If the Big Deal of these carpool lanes is to cut down on traffic delays by offering poolers an 'open' lane, then hybrids shouldn't get the exclusion anymore. Fair's fair.

But if lower emissions is the Big Deal, then isn't the Prius cutting back for 3 or 4 regular cars, and then should deserve a lane of their own?...

 

yep :iagree:

 

Thinking from the state trooper's standpoint, any system where the number of riders is dependent on the type of car's MPG rating would be a nightmare for identification.

Not to mention legal challenges in court.

I think they either need to throw out the hybrid exemption, personally; but I've harped on that elsewhere ad nauseum.

 

That's why they need the special stickers. No sticker, no HOV lane usage. They could be cheap, a couple of bucks. MPG determined by the EPA sticker. If they don't have an EPA rating, they can't get an HOV sticker at all. The state could mail them along with your annual registration sticker. Once the car is registered, its EPA rating won't change. Only a couple of more fields in the DMV's database.

Of course, this has no bearing on people driving in VT, we don't have any HOV lanes.

Or we could get some fancy amazingly expensive country wide computer controlled system going where each car would have sensors that could ensure the weight in the seat is a living, breathing human and the HOV lanes could read each car's minimum capacity to use it and the current number of occupants. Then it would (Rube Goldberg like) drop a giant red paintball on the roof of scofflaws. EASY for the troopers!
They could even track how many miles you drive and charge you the appropriate amount of road tax at the gas station too. ;-)

Hmmm, maybe I'll start a business!

For real, if there is a desire to have cleaner air, less oil dependance and fewer vehicles on the road, and there isn't enough capacity in the HOVs for everyone, I don't think the sticker idea is all that unreasonable. They already need a system to identify single occupant 45 MPG or more vehicles (except for motorcycles, they are pretty easy).

 

At the risk of making an unpopular comment, I don't think hybrids should be allowed, solo drivers, in the HOV lanes. A Prius takes up as much room as a Camry, and that's the whole point. The purpose of the HOV lanes is to encourage car pooling, not hybrids per se. I do think that a better tax incentive program would make more sense. States should also consider some incentives, espcially in metropolitan areas where pollution is a greater problem and the hybrid is at its best. Washington State exempts hybrids from vehicle inspection, in part, I think, because they probably don't have the equipment or the pollution scale to measure output on a hybrid.
As hybrids become more mainstream, their novelty will wear off and we will then have HOV lanes plugged with single occupant cars, albeit a greater number of which will be hybrids than at present.
I'd be reluctant to drive solo past a line of cars waiting to enter the freeway, just because Ihappen to drive a hybrid. To me, this is a kind of elitism that I don't want to be part of. It would be worse for folks driving Honda hybrids which look just like their gas only cousins; how would those waiting in line know you actually had the right to be passing them up unless your car had a page size day glow orange sticker that said: "HYBRID - HOV EXEMPT". Lots of resentment there.
Bob

 

The original intent of having HOV lanes, at least in Southern California, was to promote fuel conservation.

 

True, but again, if ALL they want is fewer cars, why did anyone agree to let hybrids in HOV lanes at all?

Conservation of something was involved, but apparently not lane space. Only when lane space started disappearing did people complain...

 

I'm with Bob Allen -- I think the HOV lanes should be limited to cars with (N>1) number of people in it, with N being set by the community/state. (Even better, exchange "people" for "registered drivers".)

However, I do understand the validity of the "are you aiming for less congestion (fewer cars on the road) or fewer emissions?" question.

My own question (if this hasn't been answered elsewhere -- if so, please point me to it ): on average, which produces fewer emissions: 2 people driving a PZEV/SULEV emission vehicles instead of "normal" cars; or only 1 "normal" car being driven (with 2 riders)?

Probably incredibly difficult to estimate, given the varying emissions of the cars out there on the road. However, cars built in the last 10 years are a lot cleaner, on average, than those from 20-30 years ago. If you limited it to "cars <= 10 years old", it might be easier to calculate. (Might end up being a wash.)

I ride a vanpool to work -- about 5-11 people in it every day, meaning 4-10 cars that aren't using up gas or spewing emissions. I'm pretty sure that beats that many people in hybrids, alone, most days of the week. (It certainly reduces the I-5 congestion.)

 

It may be true that the original intent of HOV lanes was fuel conservation, but now their primary purpose is to reduce highway congestion. Solo drivers have to tolerate stop and go traffic on a daily basis, however, those willing to carpool (and thereby reduce the number of cars on the road) have been rewarded with shorter commute times.

Hybrid technology may need some encouragement to establish wider acceptance and this has been done successfully with tax incentives. Also, during periods of gasoline rationing (it will happen again), hybrid cars should probably be given some special consideration there as well. However, with the possible exception of motorcycles, HOV lanes should be limited to vehicles with at least two people in them.

 

I think temporary HOV lane rules are OK as many have stated. I think they should have strict definitions as far as emissions and m.p.g. and then be sunseted when hybrids are more common. The offer should then be extended to fuel cells, electric or other true 0 emissions to encourage that development. I have gotten some of my best milage on I-5 in a traffic jam! I remember one where the back up was on a relatively flat stretch followed by a long down hill. I finished that trip to Seattle and back at almost 60 mpg! To quote the Great One "How Sweeet It Is"

 

I think that the California HOV Hybrid usage bill WAS provisioned in a very good fashion.

Among the provisions of the bill:

The federal government has to approve the use of carpool lanes by these vehicles. There is legislation pending in Congress that would give that permission.

Caltrans can suspend HOV lane privileges for hybrids on any highway if it finds that the lane or any portion of it attains a specified level of congestion that cannot be alleviated by other means. For example, carpool lane use is already heavy on Interstate 80 in the East Bay and on Highway 101 in the South Bay. It is conceivable that Caltrans would not allow hybrids to use the HOV lane on these freeways.

The Department of Motor Vehicles can issue decals to 75,000 hybrids statewide to use the carpool lanes, but no more than 75,000. There are probably about 30,000 hybrids currently on the state's roads.

Hybrids need to get more than 45 miles per gallon to use carpool lanes. The Environmental Protection Agency rates the 2004 Prius at 60 mpg in city driving and 51 mpg on the highway, while Honda's 2004 Civic Hybrid gets 48 mpg city and 47 highway.

Some of the coming-soon hybrids like the Ford Escape, Toyota Highlander or Lexus R400h may not meet that 45 mpg standard.

The privileges for hybrids ENDS Jan. 1, 2008


I will not be requesting a sticker for my Prius as my commute is against the commuters and I commute back home after midnight. Also interesting is the HOV lane on my inbound commute is NOT designated HOV during the afternoon hours.

Another reason why I won't use my local HOV lanes (even if I were legally car-pooling), is due to speed of the HOV'ers! 80MPH+ !!! I have a problem with that in a 65MPH posted area. I don't mind a reasonable over the posted limit, but these people must believe that HOV lanes are speed unlimited, probably due to them being so empty.

I belive the problem in VA is due to the State NOT limiting the number of exemption plates, or restricting hybrid use in certain HOV lane areas. As I understand it, there are also HOV2 and HOV3 Lanes, and I would think the state should disallow any exemption to a single occupant vehicle to use the HOV3 lanes.