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Anything wrong with this technique....?

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Technical Discussion' started by English Gentleman, Aug 21, 2015.

  1. English Gentleman

    English Gentleman New Member

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    Love my new 2015 Prius. Have logged the first 1000 miles at an overall average of 50.2 mpg. My last tank averaged 55 mpg. I commute 40 miles each way. I live at 7,500', and my commute to work goes up to 8,500' in 7 miles (eco cruise 50mph) then down to 4,000' in 16 miles (B mode 45mph, about 3500-4000 rpm after battery is full) then flat cruise to work. Back home the reverse, and my question is regarding the final descent home from 8,500' to 7,500' over 7 miles. I have found that I can slip the car into neutral in Cloudcroft (7,500') at 40 mph then glide in EV with the engine off at speeds between 45-60mph all the way home, burning zero fuel. Other sources I have read say the ICE has to run above 42mph but this isn't the case at all, if you get the car into EV mode (by backing off below 42mph) then into neutral, then allow gravity to accelerate the car, there is no limit to the speed you can achieve. The question is, am I doing damage to anything? I suspect not but would appreciate advice from anyone who knows better. Thanks
     
  2. afob3

    afob3 Member

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    Someone with more knowledge can answer definitively. However when in neutral no charging of the hybrid battery is hapening from the regen braking or inverter. If you let that run down too low with the AC, radio, etc running you will have issues. This is why the engine will start & run anytime you get down to about 2 bars. This issue most commonly happens when people have the car in neutral for an automatic car wash for too long.

    BTW... welcome!
     
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  3. English Gentleman

    English Gentleman New Member

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    ^Yes, but in this case, the hill is a little too gentle to keep the car moving along in D. In N however, she flies along, and makes it the 7 miles without the battery going down much, then I slip her into D half a mile from home and brake regen the last quarter mile. If the road were a little steeper then D would be better.
     
  4. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    Above 46 mph, the ICE is supposed to spin in order to protect MG1 from overspeed. However, the Neutral position locks out the car's self protection mechanism, preventing it from being able to start up the ICE to keep MG1 rpm below its redline.

    The Owner's Manual specifically prohibits driving in 'N' in order to prevent damage, but doesn't say why. This corner case, going into 'N' at low speed where the ICE is stopped then coasting up to higher speed where it would normally spin even without fuel, is the only case we are aware of that risks drive train damage.

    There is some safety margin built into that 46 mpg ICE-off maximum, but we don't know just how much margin is really there. Without such knowledge, you are risking damage. And any such damage is likely excluded from warranty coverage, the ECUs can log your activity.

    I believe the Plug-In Prii have different limits, suggesting that they also have some different hardware. If you are lucky, Toyota is putting that better hardware in all of them. If you are unlucky, ...
     
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  5. English Gentleman

    English Gentleman New Member

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    ^ That's very interesting info, thanks fuzzy1. Do you know how I might go about finding a definitive answer?
     
  6. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    ^ For a definitive answer about the MG1 safety margin, you simply are not going to get a definitive answer without being a Toyota insider. Some hard core hypermilers here and at CleanMPG.com have hinted at having better answers from their inside contacts, but it wasn't meant for public consumption so wasn't shared out in the open. Too much liability involved, and even they were taking on more risk by using that inside information.
     
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  7. English Gentleman

    English Gentleman New Member

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    I have found 3 stretches of road near where I live, which I travel regularly, on which the gradient really suits N. In D the car always has the ICE running and (unless I press very lightly on the gas pedal) the car decelerates under the default throttle-off regen. Using OBD I can see I get about 200 mpg in D with my foot slightly on the gas so the car doesn't slow down, but I burn ZERO gas for miles on end in N. It's just extremely satisfying, but if it could cause damage then I won't do it. Trouble is, "because I told you so" just brings out the belligerent rebel in me. I need to know why.
     
  8. English Gentleman

    English Gentleman New Member

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    I found this in an earlier thread: "...there is a speed limit for MG1 that the ICE needs to be running to prevent overspeed. That is why the ICE will light off when you get above about 46 mph in the Gen III when coasting in EV in D.

    When you put the car in N, if the ICE is on it will remain on and if the ICE is off it will remain off. So if you are coasting in N and the ICE is off when you switch to N, then when you first switch back to D - MG1 could possibly be in overspeed before the ICE can get up to speed to prevent overspeed.

    So you need to be careful when coasting in N above 46 mph with the ICE off. That is why I stay away from coasting in N."

    I also found this: Toyota Prius - Power Split Device

    This shows why the RPM of MG1 would exceed -6500 when selecting D at speeds above 46 mph with the ICE off.

    I am satisfied!
     
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  9. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    Proper Prius glides do require light pressure on the gas pedal to make the HSI bar disappear, getting rid of that slight regenerative synthetic 'engine drag'.

    You can still do Neutral glides without known (to the PC community) risk of damage, as long as you start with the ICE spinning. The slight fuel burn (probably 0.2 gallon per hour in idle mode) may not be satisfying, but does provide protection against redlining MG1.
     
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  10. English Gentleman

    English Gentleman New Member

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    From what I have understood, you can go as fast as you want in N with the ICE off, but you have to get below 42 mph before going into D or you'll overspeed MG1. But I'm still not 100% sure.
     
  11. English Gentleman

    English Gentleman New Member

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    OK. I programmed an OBD app on my phone to read out MG1 and MG2 rpm. If you go over 42 ish in N with the ICE off you overspeed MG1. So don't.
     
  12. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    No, no, no! I've never heard that interpretation before.

    When ICE RPM = 0, MG1 RPM is directly proportional to road speed, the higher the speed, the higher its RPM. In this condition, MG1's official redline occurs at 46 mph (or 42 on a Gen 2, or slightly different speeds on the 'v' and 'c')

    Any time the ICE is spinning, MG1 can spin slower. In Drive, the Gen3 Prius normal no-fuel spin rate is 992 RPM, allowing a significantly slower MG1 RPM. At really high speeds, the ICE can be (electrically) forced to spin faster to keep MG1 RPM safe.

    But in Neutral, when ICE RPM = 0, the car has no way to get it spinning, so MG1 will be forced (mechanically through the HSD's planetary gears, not by any electrical drive) to spin as the car moves. Coast up above 46 mph, and MG1 will be forcibly overspun. But if the ICE is idling and spinning, its speed can be adjusted (by the normal throttle controls) to keep MG1 speed down to safe RPMs.

    At highway speed, with ICE spinning, you should be able to shift between D and N at will, without hurting anything. Even attempts to shift to R and P are 'safe', as the car will recognize the error and instead go into N with a double beep warning. I've done the R shift many times, as a faster way to get to N (without the normal delay), as practice in case I'm ever struck with an alleged 'Sudden Unintended Acceleration'. (I have first hand experience with this in a past car, saved in part by hitting the clutch in a manual transmission. The Prius lacks that specific recovery mechanism.)
    Now you are catching on.
     
    #12 fuzzy1, Aug 22, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2015
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  13. English Gentleman

    English Gentleman New Member

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    Thanks again Fuzzy1. I'm getting it now. I love the comparative complexity of this car, makes it all the more fun to drive.

    I found a fun app, "OBD Fusion", that allows you to make your own "dashboard" displays. I made one with ICE RPM, MG1 RPM and MG2 RPM. Photos: IMG_5684.jpg IMG_0114.jpg
     
  14. CR94

    CR94 Senior Member

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    So, the safe solution is to press the accelerator slightly to hold the HSI bar graph at the zero (disappeared) position all the way down your long downhill. Even though the engine is spinning in that circumstance, it's normally (with occasional exceptions such as if it's not warm enough) not burning any fuel. It is mechanically spun by the wheels.

    Engine speed, MG1 speed, and the speed of the car are interrelated through a simple equation, based on the relevant gear ratios and tire size. If you know any two of those three speeds, you should be able to compute the other one.
     
  15. English Gentleman

    English Gentleman New Member

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    So... I have been out with the OBD running on some hills.

    If you slip into N with EV mode lit, the car will coast with the ICE off to whatever speed gravity will allow. Above about 50mph, your MG1 rpm will exceed -6500. (Note: MG1 can go backwards as well as forwards. Low ICE rpm and high vehicle speed = high negative MG1 rpm.)

    If you leave the car in D with EV mode lit and coast down a steep hill, at 42 mph the ICE starts up, causing the MG1 rpm to reduce. As you go faster and faster, when MG1 approaches -6500 rpm, the ICE rpm increase to prevent MG1 going over -6500.

    Question: is MG1 limited to 6500 rpm?

    Apparently not in positive rpm. If you floor the gas pedal for max acceleration, MG1 climbs to about 10,000 rpm (as does MG2).

    My latest dashboard on OBD Fusion:

    IMG_0004.jpg
     
  16. CR94

    CR94 Senior Member

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    Interesting! If my algebra (based on gear published gear tooth counts and tire size) is correct, the car speed above which the engine must spin faster than 992 RPM to avoid spinning MG1 faster than -6500 RPM should be about 85 mph. Similarly, engine speed must be limited at low car speeds to avoid spinning MG1 above +10,000 RPM.

    MG2 is limited to 13,500 RPM, which corresponds to about 113 mph.
     
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  17. English Gentleman

    English Gentleman New Member

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    How do you know the RPM limitations for MG1 & 2? Can you point me to that info please? Thanks
     
  18. CR94

    CR94 Senior Member

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    The MG2 limitation is from various earlier threads, which I'm sorry I can't find fast. There was a lot of discussion of such technical data around the time the 3rd-generation Prius was introduced. That speed also matches perfectly with the 113 mph limit on forward speed, considering relevant gear ratios. As for MG1, I do not remember its official speed limits, and was using your tentative numbers as examples. They appear plausible. Someone might jump in to tell us the actual speed limits for MG1.
     
    #18 CR94, Aug 23, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2015
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  19. qdllc

    qdllc Senior Member

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    Damage? No. Wise? No.

    The point for having the Prius in gear is so IF something happens, all systems are ON.

    I find that if you "glide" (press the accelerator enough to cancel out regenerative braking), you get a similar benefit, and when the ICE kicks in and stays on, it uses so little gas it is as if it's not even on in the first place.

    I'd suggest driving as it's designed and not fret over the few pennies in gas you save by running downhill in neutral.
     
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  20. English Gentleman

    English Gentleman New Member

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    Yes, I've been trying the glide with gas pedal slightly depressed, and I can get tremendous numbers with that. I'm convinced now that N gliding isn't smart.

    Thanks everyone for your patience and guidance.