Any one else almost buy an Insight?

I saw the insight at the autoshow and didn't like it.

 

I was actually after the Honda Insight (as it was cheaper) but was a little disappointed by it when I saw it at the showroom - so much so that I didn't even bother taking it for a test drive.

I then went to see the Prius a day or so later and the rest is history. Well, that's as close as I came to considering the Insight.

My girlfriend however, is a Honda girl and when her UK Civic is two years old in March is considering replacing it with the Insight. Each to their own I guess.

 

I went to look at it in the showroom. The back seat was tiny compared to the Prius. Like most Hondas, the seats are low to the ground which makes getting in and out difficult as well. I bumped my head trying to get out of the thing.

After seeing it in person, I knew I didn't want it.

 

I went and test drove the Insight just before buying the Prius.
I wanted to like it but I found the amenities a bit on the cheap side, even my wife noted that it was not much of a car for 20K. It was peppy though, and compare to the prius, more car like (my wife comment). I could have lived with some of the shortcomings, but what killed the deal is the seat with the lumbar support. The test drive was 10 minutes at best and I could not wait to get out of this car, my back was killing me.
Toyota has set the bar and what is concerning is that the other manufacturers have to spend R and D time to do a prius like car instead of continuing the innovation toward a renewable energy vehicle.
Things are moving though. Nissan and Renault, amongst others, are introducing EV vehicles, and in my travels I start noticing the electric infrastructure being built. I am looking into replacing my second car and it will be an EV.

 

On my voyage of Hybrid discovery, begining almost a year ago, The Prius and The Insight started out as equal possibilities.

Owning a Honda, I'm more familiar with the Honda world and vehicle feel. I think the Insight has been the victim of more negative press than it probably deserves. However upon researching, with a relative equality in price, it came down to would I rather have an Integrated Motor Assist or Hybrid Synergy Drive. Outside of the arguement of simplicity, which I think IMA wins, Hybrid Synergy Drive is a superior system IMO.

Seems to me HSD is much more of a total system, blending electricity and gas for optimal efficency. IMA is what it is, which is a motor assist. It works to the extent that it works, but as we are moving forward...no pun intended, IMA is limited as to what it can do.

If it had come down to simple familiarity with brand, and even maybe comfort with the dash layout then I'd probably be haunting the Insight forum...BUT when it came down to IMA vs. HSD then the choice was easy.

 

Yep, no conventional transmission can touch that HSD.

My GF's Civic is very nice. I probably would have bought one if there were no Prius.

 

I was looking seriously at the Insight when my local Toyota dealer could not find the Prius that I wanted before C4C was getting ready to end. I have a Honda Accord, love the car and especially like the local dealer in town and their most professional service department. The Honda dealer also had the Insight that I liked along with the color that I liked.

I almost bought the Insight but like others, I just did not like the features of the IMA as much as the HSD. I really wanted a full hybrid. I decided to go on the internet that night and check all of the dealers within 200 miles of me. I luckily found the Prius that I wanted at a dealer 100 miles away.

 

My cousin sells Hondas and I still wouldn't buy an Insight at a great discount. When I showed him my Prius he said " Toyota really beat us on this one, what a beautiful car!" I also leased a 2010 RAV4 because he couldn't beat the lease price that I got from Toyota. In fact he couldn't even come close offering me a 2009 CRV for $69 more than a 2010 RAV4. Sorry because!

 

When I first heard about the Insight I thought I should at least look and test drive one. I have owned two Honda's (Prelude and Accord) and I liked them both.

But I don't like or trust car dealers and both of the Honda dealerships within range of where I live have bad reputations. After spending about 10 minutes with each I decided I wouldn't be happy trying to do business with either of them. The two Toyota dealerships I visited at least didn't try to high pressure me and I felt like I was being treated as a customer instead of a potential victim.

I don't think I would like Honda's basic parallel hybrid system anyway. It will never perform as well as the series/parallel systems such as the HSD.

 

That's funny. Not because the Prius has Touch Tracer, Smart Key Entry and electric A/C as a standard feature?

 

Almost! Luckily I had my numerology app on my phone and discovered this:

and this:

As you can see it was a no brainer.

 

To me, the Insight is just not compelling at its price. It has inferior technology and lower mpg that you would not expect due to it being smaller then the Prius.

I would consider an Insight EX at $19,000 new and really was surprised when I saw with its specifications that it was $22,000 for the EX.

 

yep others did buy an Insight...at least a few thousand in 2009... or just over the sales for the Prius in their busiest month...

 

This is where we often get many conflicting interpretations of what is simpler vs what is not.

First let me add a bit of specificity regarding both architectures and what they have in common.

Both platforms have essentially the same basic hybrid components that differentiate it from everything else on the road. The basic principles of a hybrid topology are fully in force and the respective potential results are evidence of this.

In the end they are both gasoline powered solutions and if maximum efficiency is to be obtained in either, then the key is to use less electric and keep the RPMS down.

Now for the differences: HSD is actually the most elegant and also the least complicated of the two and not the other way around.

Because it was so well thought out, it not only produces the best results but also does it in ways that reflect this often hidden simplicity in the form of higher reliability and lower efficiency losses when compared to an IMA platform.

The IMA architecture is actually far more complex both from an implementation point of view as well as an operational perspective. Many Prius owners know very little about IMA and it is natural to assume that since the Prius delivers better results in many areas, that it must be more "sophisticated" and therefore more complex. This is not always so. Why?

Lets cover a few things that many folks do not know about IMA:

• Because the electric motor is synchronous with the camshaft, the IMA system needs to be always accutely aware of the position of the camshaft and apply electric power in a very precise fashion so as deliver maximum effect. The Electric motor has many purposes beyond powering the car. For instance, it suppresses vibrations and the transitioning between the ICE operational modes. In fact, it is much like a densely powered precision stepper motor. A simple discrepancy with the motor position sensors is enough to put the IMA system into a managed fault condition. This symbiotic relationship is far more complex to manage and operate than the HSD synergy combination of 2 electric motors connected to the ICE via the PSD.
• The IMA system depends on a gas engine that is many times more complex and sophisticated than the ICE we find on fuel efficient HSD platforms. It sports exotic low friction engineering and other advances not found in any other non-hybrid Honda engines. This includes not only the materials but also the manufacturing processes and techniques as well as the underlying operating modes. The idea behind Honda's philosophy is that it is more effective to maximize efficiency earlier in the energy conversion process. Does this work? Not for most folks, that's for sure, but it does wonders for those who tune in to the features and use them appropriately.
• The IMA motor is rated with lower power levels (12-15Kw) but it is also one of the most dense and compact electric motors in the world.
  The purpose of its design is not to provide horse power numbers but rather torque, which complements the deficits of the hybrid ICE quite well. Many of our Prius friends read the paper ratings and often miss the true contribution/value of the electric motor in an IMA platform.
  On this note, comparisons to an electric supercharger are also misleading and not really accurate either.
• The extreme synchronicity requirements between the ICE and the electric motor contribute to a greater dependency on the NiMH battery pack than many people realize, including the majority of HSD owners. A modern IMA platform without electric contribution is a real dog no matter how you cut it and because the IMA system depends on the electric side of things so much and so often.
  In fact the IMA system abuses the battery packs so often and so frequently that battery packs will often average shorter lives than that of other hybrids. To contain this, a modern IMA has some of the most complex and convoluted battery pack management routines I know of. And to top it all off, Honda keeps updating and revising those with frequent software updates.
  Many Toyota dealers do not know what a software update is. Honda dealers in the other hand, often provide software updates for any of the 7 distinct hybrid subsystems on a regular basis. In other words, if you want to radically change the personality and behavior of a modern Honda hybrid just take it in for a software update to see what I mean.

In the end, I just touched of a very narrow set of areas but so much is left to interpretation that depends on one's level of understanding about each of the platforms. But, as some say, things are not always what they appear.

As I see it, IMA is all about apparent simplicity but extreme complexity under the hood. When compared to the latest IMAs, HSD is best interpreted as the other way around.

Cheers;

MSantos

 

IMO the 2010 Insight looks better than the 2010 Prius.

Also, as a general matter, I've always preferred the handling of Hondas over Toyotas.

But I haven't test driven either the new Insight or Prius, so I don't know if I would actually like the Insight's handling more.

 

Tom,

You may have a better taste in wine than me but I have to disagree with you here.

 

MSantos,

Very informative post. IMA HV pack is passive cool right? I don't remember if it has a fan or not.