Amsoil - New Synthetic

Does Amsoil state it "meets" any of the common API, ACEA or manufacturers specifications. Or are they still sticking with "comply with" which means it's their word, if you care to believe. Until they submit to the organizations or manufacturers I'll stick with German Castrol.

Wayne

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(FireEngineer @ Jun 3 2007, 11:18 AM) [snapback]454399[/snapback]</div>

AMSOIL Synthetic 0W-20 Motor Oil is recommended for Honda, Acura, DaimlerChrysler, Toyota, Ford and all other applications where SAE 0W-20 or 5W-20 is required with the following specifications:

* API SM/CF, SL, SJ. . .
* ILSAC GF-4, 3. . .
* ACEA A1/B1
* Ford WSS-M2C930-A
* DaimlerChrysler MS-6395N

 

This is something I've always been bothered about regarding Amsoil and their products, never mind the Multi Level Marketing approach that I find a complete turnoff. Amsoil at their official site claims the 0W-20 is "recommended" for certain API service. Does that actually mean the oil itself is API certified?

Few of the oils that Amsoil produces actually carry an ACEA or API "donut" certification. Although most of their oils usually produce fairly good used oil analysis reports, if the motor should coincidentally develop a problem, the "proven" failure to use a "certified" oil could get Toyota off the hook.

Amsoil also claims to offer their own warranty. I have not heard if anybody has successfully used it.

 

Amsoil's XL 5W-20 (XLM), 5W-30 (XLF), 10W-30 (XLT), 10W-40 (XLO) and 15W-40 (PCO) are all API licensed.

If you want to learn more about oil, the best place to go is: http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/ubbthreads.php

 

So it looks like the majority of their motor oil is *not* API or ACEA licensed? I suppose as long as the used oil analysis is ok, the motor should be ok.

The problem occurs when the motor should develop a coincidental issue, and the dealership pounces on the use of a non-API certified oil to get Toyota warranty off the hook.

Similar horror stories happened here with Ford turbodiesel truck owners using the Amsoil synthetic in the new 5 speed HD auto. No doubt a handful of the Torqueshift autoboxes had a problem, but the owner who was really trying hard to keep the tranny running a long time was ironically punished for doing so.

The dealership was sneaky about it too. On the work order, they noted the transmission service, and this "Non approved non Ford ATF customer supplied"

Oops.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman @ Jun 3 2007, 11:41 PM) [snapback]454781[/snapback]</div>

The only way a company can make you use a particular brand of oil is if they give it to you for free. That is clearly spelled out in the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act. As long as the oil you are using meets the OEM specifications, then you can use any brand you wish. Only if the oil is determined to be the direct cause of the engine problem can a manufacturer or dealership deny warranty coverage for that specific problem. And, in that case, both Mobil 1 and Amsoil have indepedent warranties that would kick in to cover the repairs.

In terms of Amsoil, their oils meet various OEM specification, so I am not sure if their not being API licensed is really that big of an issue. To me, the OEM specs are what are really important.

 

Well, the issue I have is that the auto makers here can specify "API certified" and generically, a LOT of oils claim to be tested to API minimums. Is that necessarily the best oil for your motor? No, not really. Will you get into a pissing contest with the dealer if a coincidental engine problem shows up totally unrelated to your use of a non-API oil? Probably. Will you eventually win such a contest? Maybe.

I much prefer the European method of certifying motor oils, in which the car MAKER is free to determine the specs. Here, the API determines specs, and since the API is in a contradictory position of promoting the industry - frequent oil changes of course - and of protecting the motor, guess which priority comes out ahead.

Not only are ACEA specs much stricter than API specs, the car maker has obvious authority to specify a particular type of oil. Even a particular brand, such as VW with the Castrol Longlife II series for the 2 year/30,000 mile service interval.

Or consider that the Prius operated in the EU has a normal 12 month or 10,000 mile service interval, which is the regular interval for most EU cars. That is twice as long as the North American market Prius.

To be sure, the ACEA test series is quite a bit more costly than the API test series, as it covers far extended runs - such as three times the extended service - and deals with issues our API oils don't address, such as cold stuck/cold sludged rings.

If you have read my threads on the poor quality of the dealer bulk oil, you are no doubt aware all that sodium, sulfur, free moisture, iron, and other contaminants would have a very negative effect on extreme cold weather operation. It really isn’t unusual to find a 3-4 year old vehicle in Winnipeg that is already leaving a blue cloud behind.

I'm not saying Amsoil is bad oil. I'm just put off by their Multi Level Marketing approach. I’ve noticed that Amsoil is now much more careful about making blanket statements for extended servicing, preferring used oil analysis that they naturally offer at an additional cost. Royal Purple, Motul, and others also produce fine oils.

I think the one point we may agree on is that the no-name mystery bulk oil in the dealer tote bin isn’t the best choice for long-term use of your motor. True enough, the dealer may claim it meets all the minimum specs, but consider the minimum API specs still allow an oil to thicken 250% in service and “pass.†With no mention of cold sludge issues, and that is something Toyota has already been burned on.

 

I just took a look in my owner's manual and did not notice that Toyota specified the use of an API licensed oil.

So, it looks like Toyota uses the International Lubricant Standardization and Approval Committee (ILSAC) standard.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Swanny1172 @ Jun 4 2007, 01:00 PM) [snapback]454996[/snapback]</div>

This should be old news, but ILSAC is allied with API:

http://www.api.org/certifications/engineoi...ition042007.pdf

These *minimum* standards are still quite weak contrasted to the European ACEA standards. I strongly encourage you to read the entire report, but to save time please use the Acrobat GoTo feature to jump to P.96. There is mention of the Oil Ring Clogging test:

"Effective October 8, 1993, the Oil Ring Clogging parameter has been suspended as a requirement for the Sequence VE test. Therefore, it has been removed as a requirement for licensing. For any programs that include more than one Sequence VE test and the test completion dates include dates both before and after October 8, 1993, Oil Ring Clogging should be ignored for these tests. ASTM re-evaluated this issue in June 1994 and decided to suspend this parameter indefinitely."

Cold weather operation with an oil that cannot effectively control sludge can result in rapid Ring Land deposit formation and blowby/oil burning. Although the minimum ACEA A1 has no requirement to control this, the better A3, A4, and A5 oils do.

The ACEA sequence is also run three times longer than the API/ILSAC sequence for oil aging. The 80 hour API GF-3 test still allows an oil to thicken 275% during the test run, and the test motor to use 5.2 litres of makeup oil, to earn a "pass." See P.105.

You'll note comments like "rate" and "rate and report" for such important items as cold aged viscosity, cold stuck rings, oil screen debris, and oil ring clogging. What "rate and report" means is that an oil can perform VERY poorly in that area - contrasted to an API/ILSAC oil - but still earn a "pass" as these parameters are ignored.

For an individual living in a "normal" part of North America where the winter temps never dip to -40, I suppose the above really doesn't mean much. For those of us living in an area that can see summer temps of +35 C, and winter temps of -40 C, it means a great deal. The minimum spec API garbage just doesn't cut it.

If anything, I would hope that reading this report will convince a handful here on Priuschat that it's completely false to believe "all oils are the same."

As a final note, the oil company itself is allowed to test their own oils without any oversight from the API. Only if a lot of bad reports come in would the API actually test the oil itself. This is very much in contrast to the ACEA which independently tests all oils submitted to it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Swanny1172 @ Jun 4 2007, 10:53 AM) [snapback]454929[/snapback]</div>

The individuals with the problem TorqShift transmissions did try the legal route and lost. Amsoil was of no help to them either, as the transmissions had a manufacturing defect. It was a sneaky way of Ford to get out of warranty work.

 

API is great and all but is really just here in America. In Europe no API, cars all run synthetic and recommended interval is 10000 miles. API is really all about money not the consumers. Who do you think is on the boards of the committee for API.... leaders from oil companies. In Europe the engine manufacturers set the standard and control the show. In America it's all about selling lots of oil! Look up Lube N Greases do the research. Amsoil is about the people and the environment no matter how the oil is sold.

 

I have a hunch the OP won't see this since s/he hasn't been around in over a year and the thread is almost three years old.

 

old threads should get locked into view only at some point maybe?

 

Sorry Sheepdog but I need to disagree with you on that point. I think there would be MANY, MANY more original postings if these old threads are read only, ex. if two years ago there was a highly recommended tire that is now getting poor reviews the original thread could be updated with the new info. Just my 2 cents.

 

I have been using Amsoil 0w30 oil in my 2005 prius for 12k miles and have had no issues but have noticed a slight increase in fuel economy over Mobil 1 that was used previous to my friends shop becoming Amsoil dealer. I dont think it is worth the money over going to wally world and buying mobil 1 synthetic in 5 quart bottles for 24 dollars but he does the oil changes for free for me so I cant complain

 

cannot compare to german Castrol but have US spec experience using Castrol, Mobil 1 and Amsoil synthetics, and here are the thoughts:
- Amsoil is superior to others. It has superior resistance to wear, oil shearing, high heat and has longest life expectancy, it is the only oil I put in my motorcycles and it will last 10-12K w/o shift deterioration. High price and dealer only availability.
- Mobil-1. Great oil, not as good as Amsoil but alot cheaper. Does not like heat as much and will shear faster, not as good in wear as Amsol, but will go 5-6K in motocycle before shifting starts deteriorate. Superior cleaning, had engine opened at 70K and 150K miles and it was sparkling clean like it just came from assembly line. Have used it my cars exclusively, have a 1.5L commuter car with 375K miles (600,000km), ~350K on Mobil-1. Oil changed every 10-12K (16-20,000km), no engine rebuild still runs great.
- Castrol. Very good protection, but does not lasts. Prone to thermal breakdown, gums up and leaves residue on engine internals. Will not use it again.