Alternative Energy thread

Hmmm...300 years of oil. I've heard estimates from 10 to 500 years. I guess we'll know for sure when it's all gone. ...And when the last well goes dry, I'm sure conspiracy theories will abound about evil empires hording the world's oil.

 

Don't forget Mars. We're looking for more than water there! :mrgreen:

Mark

 

The real issue is that petroleum is a limited resource and drawdown of a limited non-renewable resource is not a strategy that works. There are those who know this and simply think that some new unknown technology will be discovered that will allow us to continue our current lifestyle unchanged. That is a risky approach. Petroleum IS needed for certain things for which a substitute will be difficult to develop. Aircraft, for example, or feed stock for most plastics and many medications. Viewing our current lifestyle and habits as "non negotiable" is at best foolish and at worst suicidal. Unfortunately, we all have to do SOME driving because the infrastructure does not exist to make it possible (at least in most urban areas) to not drive. So, if we have to drive, let it be a Prius. We must extend the Petroleum Era (Heinberg in The Party's Over refuses to call it an "Era" but rather an "Interval" due to it's VERY brief lifespan. Even the most wildly optimistic see oil peaking before 2035 and most well before that. The implications for the industrial world are enormous and a prudent society would already be looking to develop "Plan B".

 

It was my understanding that hydrogen fuel cells aren't much of an alternative energy. Its nice and all that "the only emissions are water", but then there's the actual production of hydrogen, which isn't so clean.

Personally, I'm pretty big on solar power. I think most homes can provide a vast majority of their own power with solar cells on their roof. Most people imagine a "solar power plant" as a huge array of panels and mirrors in the desert, stretched across a huge field. Naturally, there's no space for such a setup in a big city. But in the suburbs, the "field" could just be people's houses. It makes so much sense, which is probably why it won't happen until energy prices cripple the country.

And if you get right down to it, its all solar power. Nuclear, natural gas, oil, coal is ALL derived from solar energy. Its too bad the big oil companies are too powerful to be taken down and too short-sighted to invest in these technologies.

 

Actually, at least two petroleum companies now have solar energy divisions -- BP and Shell. There might be more.

Some energy companies are starting to "get it" but, in my opinion, not quickly enough.

I think solar is a great way to go. The technology has not yet advanced to the point where it is easy to use and economical (especially here in Canada), but I think that day will be coming soon.

Before our old car started sputtering and we decided to put our cash towards a Prius, my husband and I seriously considered getting a solar water heating system. However, it was going to be a little inconvenient to install, and we were going to have to pay someone to do it, so we were hesitating. By the time we're in a position to consider adding solar technology to our home again, I hope that things will have gotten to the point where we can buy it from the local Home Depot and do it ourselves.

Hey! One can always dream....

Margaret

 

This seeemed more appropriate for the evironmental forums.

 

I don't think oil is going to suddenly "run out." I think it's going to get progressively more expensive to get it out of the ground, as we deplete the shallow reserves and have to go deeper, and as we have to go to great lengths to suck the dregs out of individual deposits. Thus we may indeed have 300 years of oil. But in 50 years it may cost $100 a gallon.

But then the people making our energy policy are not going to be alive in 50 years, so they couldn't care less.

 

and the nearby-to-me-town of Los Gatos, CA, the City Council wouldn't let a solar energy firm put solar cells on the roof of their building because it upset the "look and feel" of the town. nor would they let the firm use actual solar cells as a facade around the roofline to hide the real solar cell farm.

---takes all kinds...

in my area, for an initial investment of about $20-40,000, i could install a big enough system to pump net kilowatts OUT of my house, reducing my electric bill to just a connect charge. it would pump enough juice out through the wattmeter so that what we consume during non-generating hours wouldn't bring the meter back to where it started!

but the return on investment is still pretty poor, due to the cost of the system versus the cost of electricity. :guns: Darn!

still buying lotto tickets....

 

plusaf, that's kinda surprising, given the fairly progressive nature of the Bay Area. BTW, what happens during the winter, when it rains virtually every day? Is solar still viable then?

In Montgomery County, MD (where I live), the county has just passed a resolution to buy wind-generated power from West Virginia. This'll power 5% of all county buildings, with hopes for an increase in the future. They're pairing it with an energy reduction initiative: each county building will have a person designated to turn off all the lights and such at the end of the day, in order to save power. Something so simple, a 4th grader could have come up with it. It makes me sad/angry to see so many office buildngs with all their lights (and I'd assume, computers) running at night, when its clear that the buildings are completely empty.

 

Just remember that SAFTY is always an issue. Just last month, an employee at our building was attacked. I'm sure that as soon as someone is either mugged, raped, or worse yet, killed, in an unlit area, those rules will change again.

 

I think the plan was for the "last person out to please turn off the lights." In this case, it would be a janitor or custodian. And if that's true, then having lights on or off shouldn't really matter. If someone's going to be mugged, late at night, alone in a public building, its going to happen with or without lights on.


As for the costs of solar, I did some calculations on the back of an envelope, and figured that for most homes, it'll take 30 years to pay off these systems based on electricity bills. And yes, most people probably don't stay in the same house for 30 years. But when it comes time to sell your house, can't you, pretty easily, tack the cost of the solar panels onto the sale price of your home? Just like if you added a deck or expanded a bathroom, its a home improvement.

 

Solar is more than just electricity & hot water. I knew a guy in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada, who built solar ovens using inexpensive, readily-available materials. (The double-layer glass was the highest-tech component.) On a clear day in January he could bake bread in the yard.

Considering the bitterly cold temperatures, and the very low insolation in Saskatoon (around 52 degrees N. Lat.) in January, that's an impressive demonstration of how much energy there is in sunlight.

Problem is, of course, The Shrub doesn't get a cut when my friend fires up his oven.

 

I use two solar ovens to do the majority of my cooking. And you are right, the day can be quite cold, but as long as the sky is clear, you can bake! They work great and in general recipes don't have to be modified to work in solar ovens. I have made fantastic lasagna, breads, soups, stews, chicken. Baked/sweet potatoes are no brainers. In general (meats need more careful attention due to bacteria issues), you can put your stews, soups, casseroles, potatoes and the like in the oven, point the oven at about 2:00 pm (where the sun will be at 2:00 pm), go to work and when you come home, pull the still warm meal out and serve! If I am not cooking, I put a big pot of water in and have hot water for cleaning the dishes.

 

There is a product out now called a Solar Wand, that simplifies the tank side of the equation in solar water heating. I am looking to install a setup this summer. For a look at how it works try http://www.thesolarbiz.com/Solar%20Wand%20...20Exchanger.htm

I have been talking to the fellow I got my solar oven from and he has just completed two installations. While not a no brainer, it is a brilliant solution to the complications of most solar heat exchange tanks. For info he would be glad to share, contact "[email protected]" or try his web site at http://members.aol.com/blazingsolar/bslmain.html

Still not a cheap installation, but since natural gas now stands at a record $6.70 per MMbtu, it may not take much more to make the payback pretty quick. Take a look at this price chart for natural gas and you will see what I mean. www.enercast.com/natural-gas.html Pretty scary.

For a not so sanguine view of natural gas' future, see http://www.energyshop.com/energyshop/media...cle_sixteen.cfm, an article straight from a natual gas industry web site. It is NOT good news.

My feeling is that we are on the verge of really needing to install and use alternative energy sources, and it won't take much more in the way of price increases to make solar water, space and electricity (a good portion of our electricty is produced by natural gas fired turbines) quite competitive.

 

Part of the breakthrough alternative energy needs is a method of storage. When the sun is shining and the wind is blowing, great. But what do you do on the still, dark nights? Nature did a great job stroring energy in the form of oil & coal, but the time scale of creation & the penalties involved in releasing the energy are not exactly ideal. Hot water storage is easy, but storing enough energy to generate electricity is not easy...yet. I know of some hydro plants that pump water back up the hill (potential energy storage). Be interesting to know how much water we would need to pump (and how high) on a daily basis to 'store' enough energy for one evening's electricity.

 

THere are some current batteries that use a flywheel to store kinetic energy. Seems like a good alternative to the traditional lead-acid battery.

 

..and of course, someone is already working to integrate flywheels & wind turbines...
http://www.beaconpower.com/products/Energy...dpower_2003.pdf

 

Central Vermont Public Service is planning to have dairy farmers sell power into the grid generated by cow manure.

This is not an April Fools story.

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