Featured All hydrogen fuel cell cars are compliance cars, for now

Agree 100%
This is the reason why I changed from a PiP to another Plug in vehicle with a lot more comfort and better electrical range and avoided the hassle of getting in the FCV bandwagon.

 

To be fair, no new automotive technology makes business sense.
The Prius didn't make business sense. It lost money into its second generation.

That said, the fact FCVs are cleaner than ICE vehicles, IMO, makes them worth pursuing as a research project.

I suspect the biggest challenge will be to get people to buy them when they are:
More expensive.
Little additional performance and drive quality.
Costs more to fuel.
Are less convenient to fuel.
Limited long distance travel.

Eventually some of that can change, IF they can get enough people to buy them when they have those drawbacks.

 

I suspect when the EV1 came out there were people who said the same:

More expensive.
Little additional performance and drive quality.
Costs more to Maintain.
Are less convenient to fuel (Charge).
Limited long distance travel.

Well jump ahead 20 years, now the FCVs are viewed in the same light. So it will take time for FCVs to be viewed in the same regard as EVs are today.

 

The back door for the FCV is undoubtedly the the lack of refueling infrastructure.
Until that issue is not resolve, the FCV will never see a popular purchase demand.

 

Yes, and the ev1 came out as a small test vehicle, only available by lease.
I have no issues with FCVs being test vehicles. But why slow down the adoption rate of EVs?

 

When the EV1 came out there was a lack of charging centers, one had to find them at local parking lots. But the EV survived and are now seen everyday.

 

Charging centers?? With the vehicle was supplied a charging station with a paddle wand and you could have one installed in your house. Its electricity for G*D sake!!!
Besides, the electric range was so infimal that a trip to the local movie theater and back was disabling any other planned trip.
I wonder in witch world you live that can see EV1s everyday. Do you work at a car museum?

 

EV1 did come with home charging. But what do you do if you needed a charge to get back home? The EV1 was leased by many in California and my neighbor had one. And if you want to see one of the last surviving ones (that did not get crushed by GM) you can see one at the Peterson Museum in LA

 

Please, correct this sentence, it doesn't make sense

 

Corrected.....EV survived and are seen every day.

 

The Japanese government wanted low emission vehicles for their cities. In addition to the government programs funding research, the Prius and other LEV cars of the time got a direct subsidy to the manufacturer. Hybrids were still getting government sales incentives when the Prius plug in came to market, and they may have even hurt its sales in Japan.

The government also wants hydrogen FCEVs to succeed there. So they are likely to spend the money for it to happen. They might also work in similar, small geographic markets where the cost of the infrastructure doesn't have a super high total price tag, and it can be completed in a relatively short time to support cars sales to the larger population.

For the US, the cost of the hydrogen infrastructure is simply too great. Using hydrogen for fuel in passenger cars has all the drawbacks of using natural gas, and the only dedicated CNG car available for private sale is no longer available. They never got past the fleet only stage, and there is already over a million miles of natural gas pipelines in this country.

FCEVs were viewed in the same light even back then. Just even worse, and it took those 20+ years and tons of money to close the gap with the plug ins of today.

 

GM killed and crushed the EV1. Public chargers had little to do with the issue. They were crushed in anticipation of delaying zev and the potential of fcv. Absoluely the EV1 and RAV4 EV were demonstration phase vehicles. GM, Toyota, Ford, and Honda joined together to killl the BEV. GM even sold the patents to batteries to texaco, so that they could be burried. CARB got the federal government to fully support FCV. In 2004 the DOE went full speed ahead. Governor schwartzenager flanked by his hydrogen hummer and 2 toyota FCHV (hydrogen fuel cell modified highlanders) declared the hydrogen highway, 100 stations for $100M done by 2010.

Start up tesla is what happened. The roadster didn't need dedicated public chargers, simply chargers at home, and 110 or 220 VAC outlets for longer trips. These are everywhere. This started the revenge of the electric car. GM felt backlash from crushing the EV1 and saw the potential of the roadster. Nissan did too. Toyota saw hobbiests modifying their prius to add plug-in capability, and joined those 3.

In 2006, the DOE started looking into supporting plug-ins as well as FCV and hybrids. December 2010 first customers were shipped the leaf and volt. The US, China, Norway, France all incubated the plug-ins. There were misteps, but 1 Million plug-ins were sold between december 2010 and August 2015 (57 months) and sales are accelerating.

There are lots of fcv EV-1s. I think people are still waiting for the fcv equivalent of the roadster.

 

Then Government Motors called them all back and CRUSHED them!

DBCassidy

 

Thanks for the education on the demise of the EV1, but I also watched "Who Killed the Electric Car"

 

Toyota has a lot more money then does Tesla, so if needed, Toyota can play ball.

 

Not all, there are still some alive.

 

Perhaps it makes sense to revisit what 'compliance' is all about: Transportation Sector | Center for Climate and Energy Solutions

Start with this chart:

• Ending with 2018:
  • PZEV - conventional vehicle (aka., Ford Focus, Clean Diesels(?))
  • AT PZEV - advanced technology PZEV (i.e., Civic CNG, Prius)
• From 2018 and beyond only:
  • ZEV - zero emissions (i.e., LEAF, fuel cell vehicles)
  • TZEV - range extended EV (i.e., Volt, i3 range extended, PiP)

In effect, CARB is killing the Prius, CNG, and efficient gas (and diesel?) cars in 2018. This suggests 2018 may be the year when Toyota has to decide if they want to sell the Prius to the rest of us. It won't work if the rumored, crippled configurations are the only offerings. Making mods to our 2010 Prius would make more sense.

Pure battery cars in 2018 may be more practical (Tesla excepted) than what is available today. As for fool-cell cars, a game changer would be an onboard, hydrogen reformer using a practical source (i.e., methanol, CNG, or ammonia.) Playing with pure hydrogen remains a non-starter. CARB will take a little longer before they realize the gap between PowerPoint and product.

So in 2015, range extended still looks more practical for us in the fly-over states. Just none of them have efficient engines like the Prius and that bothers me. I prefer thermally efficient engines.

In the short range, there should be some excellent Prius bargains in late 2017 in California. Certainly in early 2018 as the dealers won't have any incentives to sell Prius in the CARB states.

Bob Wilson

 

Automakers have tried & tried & tried to make hydrogen work affordably since the 1970's. Jump ahead 20 years makes it the 1990's. same thing. Jump ahead ANOTHER 20 years .... same thing. Let me guess .... just 20 more years? Some inside Toyota are finally having a reality check .... ie; maybe never. And who wants another car that can best run on natural gas anyway ... as natural gas - although cost prohibitive, is the least obscenely expensive way to make it go. Still ... who knows ... maybe in 20 more years? Why reinvent the wheel by making it more complex & expensive when cheaper plugin's (that already have a cheep & growing infrastructure) still need to grow. Jeez - if they couldn't make it work inexpensively over the past 1/2 century - good luck blowing through dwindling tax dollars over the next 1/2 century.
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