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A/C manifold gauge set contaminated?

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Care, Maintenance & Troubleshooting' started by Seymour1, Aug 15, 2024.

  1. Seymour1

    Seymour1 Junior Member

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    I have seen at least 2 posts stating that if you use a manifold set on a non-hybrid, it will be contaminated with the wrong oil to use on a hybrid. I bought a new set and used it once to add freon to my '07 Corolla. I am wondering how it gets contaminated.
    1.The pure R134A traveled from the can to the low side. (not the other direction)
    2. The high and low readings should not have allowed any flow of freon or oil from the car to the manifold set unless one of the gauges leaked. The only movement in the hoses would be air and freon becoming pressurized initially . And most likely pure air in the hoses would be near the gauges.
    Even so, the tiny amount of freon containing a very tiny amount of oil that could transfer to another car sees to me nothing to worry about. 100% PAG oil might become conductive after it gets dirty.
    Anyway, I ordered another set from Amazon. I suspect that it may have been a returned set from someone else. To be sure, I need to find a new set packaged in a "blister pack"
    Do A/C shops have 2 of the expensive, heavy, on-a-cart, manifold sets?
    What are your thoughts?
     
  2. Seymour1

    Seymour1 Junior Member

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    I just thought to google my question. One i-car website guy stated that as little as 1% of PAG oil can reduce the dielectric properties. In my case, I think that it would be far less than 1%, since the manifold set was used only one time. And, I will flush the hoses before I use them on my Prius. Maybe risky. Or, Walmart sells a low-side-only-gauge kit in a blister pack. That should get me in the ball park.
    2024-08-15_13-04-46.jpg Or, Walmart sells a kit in a
     
  3. ASRDogman

    ASRDogman Senior Member

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    "#8: A straight-forward approach to avoid cross-contamination is to use dedicated
    hoses and injectors for each type of refrigerant oil."

    I think that says it all.....

    What is the cost of guages and hoses compaired to a new expensive compressor?
    And the time and money to properly flush and clean the hoses, expansion valve, receiver/dryer,
    evaporator, and condensor?????
     
    #3 ASRDogman, Aug 15, 2024
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2024
    amarino likes this.
  4. amarino

    amarino Member

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    First issue I believe is that R134a and R1234yf systems have different connectors so you will need to buy an adapter to use your current R134a gauges.

    The fancy Snap-On machine has 2 sets of gauges and a seperate set of hoses for each system: Loading...
    Other machines with shared gauges and hoses will have a deep purge / cleaning cycle when switching between refrigerants. Its mentioned in the Manual for this one for example: AIRTEK New Fully Automatic R-134A & 1234YF Recovery & Recharge DUAL AC – airtekproducts

    Do you know if the freon you added to your Corolla was pure R134a or was it one of those "stop leak" type that may have other stuff mixed in?

    If you don't want to get a whole set of gauges, they also make the quick top-off cans with built-in gauge: https://www.autozone.com/a-c-charging-and-refrigerant/r1234yf-refrigerant/p/weitron-r1234yf-refrigerant-can-incudes-diy-charging-kit-and-analog-gauge-11oz/1354076_0_0


    EDIT: Ignore what I said about the R1234yf, it looks like our Gen 3 Prius still uses R-134a but with different oil ND-11 instead.
     
    #4 amarino, Aug 15, 2024
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2024
  5. Tombukt2

    Tombukt2 Senior Member

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    Your gauge set isn't going to have any kind of residual that you can measure like you're measuring here You could purge the gauge set if you really thought that was something you needed to do and then that pretty much ends that just run some 134 through it back into your reclaim machine if you do that sort of thing and that's it You're not going to have enough vapor of the improper oil to cause the air conditioning system in any of the Prius to prematurely deteriorate highly unlikely The system will break and be destroyed the car will be in the junkyard probably before that happens or the evaporator will go bad and you need to take apart your whole car.
     
  6. amarino

    amarino Member

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    Ignore what I said about the R1234yf in my previous post, it looks like our Gen 3 Prius still uses R-134a but with different oil ND-11 instead.

    Also here is an interesting note from the Repair Manual:
    • Avoid using the gauge manifold set that had been used for vehicles with conventional compressor oil (ND-OIL8 or equivalent) as much as possible. This will cause compressor oil remaining in the manifold to enter the vehicle, resulting in insulation performance deterioration. A gauge manifold set that had been used 3 times or less can be reused if an appropriate one is not available.
    2024-08-15_112406.jpg


    Some more scary warnings from the Repair Manual if you want:


    Title: HEATING / AIR CONDITIONING: AIR CONDITIONING SYSTEM: P0AA6-611; Hybrid Battery Voltage System Isolation Fault; 2015 MY Prius [08/2014 - ]

    DESCRIPTION
    The DTC is stored if there is insulation trouble with the high-voltage circuits in the air conditioning system. Possible causes are poor insulation in the compressor with motor assembly, or mixing of any oil other than ND-OIL 11 in the refrigerant cycle.

    The motor driven with high-voltage is built into the electrical compressor and is cooled directly with refrigerant. Compressor oil (ND-OIL 11) with high insulation performance is used because a leakage of electrical power may occur if regular compressor oil (ND-OIL 8) is used.

    CAUTION:
    • Wear insulated gloves and pull out the service plug grip before inspection as procedures may require disconnecting high-voltage connectors.
    • Be sure to carry the removed service plug grip because other workers may install it by mistake.
    • Do not touch the high-voltage connectors or terminals for 10 minutes after the service plug grip is removed.
    DTC No.: P0AA6-611
    DTC Detection Condition: High voltage system insulation malfunction
    Trouble Area:
    • Compressor oil
    • Refrigerant pipe line
    • Compressor with motor assembly
    • CAN communication system


    INSPECTION PROCEDURE
    CAUTION:
    • Wear insulated gloves and pull out the service plug grip before inspection as procedures may require disconnecting high-voltage connectors.
    • Be sure to carry the removed service plug grip because other workers may install it by mistake.
    • Do not touch the high-voltage connectors or terminals for 10 minutes after the service plug grip is removed.

    NOTICE:
    • Electrical insulation performance may decrease significantly if even a small amount of oil other than ND-OIL 11 is used (or enters) in the refrigerant cycle, causing the DTC to be output.
    • If other oil is accidentally used and a DTC is output, collect the oil in the refrigerant cycle into the compressor and replace it with ND-OIL 11 to increase the ND-OIL 11 ratio amount.
    • Replace the main components (evaporator, condenser, and compressor) if a large amount of oil other than ND-OIL 11 enters the system. Failing to do so may cause electrical insulation performance to remain low, causing the DTC to be output.
    • The hybrid control system and air conditioning system output DTCs separately. Inspect DTCs following the flow chart for the hybrid control system first if any DTCs from those systems are output simultaneously.

    HINT:
    If it can be confirmed that any compressor oil other than ND-OIL 11 has been used in the vehicle, replace the air conditioning cycle.

    2024-08-15_113453.jpg
     
  7. bbrages

    bbrages Member

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    I sprayed some brake cleaner through the hoses to flush them out
     
  8. ASRDogman

    ASRDogman Senior Member

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    :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:
     
  9. Seymour1

    Seymour1 Junior Member

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    The freon that was used on my '07 Corolla was pure R-134A. But, I will play it safe and buy a single-gauge kit in a blister pack from Walmart for 20 bucks. And I will return the kit to Amazon. They need to sell manifold kits in tamper-proof, sealed containers.
    At the moment, my compressor will not turn on. I am hoping that the freon quantity is too low to actuate the low-side pressure switch. A quick tap into the schrader valve shows that there is some pressure. If I add more R-134A, I might get lucky. Blink codes, a Creader scanner and a partially working T S report no code.

    Thanks for the interesting and useful information.
     
  10. Seymour1

    Seymour1 Junior Member

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    I have one other question; Since my compressor will not run, I do not know how much freon to add and am told there is no way to add the correct amount unless it is running. I have a chart of the proper pressures for R-134a when the compressor is working. How can I force the compressor to run? Should I force the compressor to run? I possibly have a bad compressor.
     
  11. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Best way is to extract and recover whatever refrigerant is in there now, pull deep vacuum on the system, and then weigh in the proper amount of refrigerant.
     
  12. bbrages

    bbrages Member

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    If you have enough freon in there to hit the static pressure (vapor pressure) for your ambient temperature, that should be enough to get the compressor to run. I don't see a point in adding or recharging the refrigerant if that is your situation.
     
  13. Seymour1

    Seymour1 Junior Member

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    For now, I am trying to find out if my compressor is good or not. I bought a cheap (clean) gauge (in a blister pack) to see if the low side pressure was high enough (40 PSI) to allow the compressor to run. Without the compressor running, it measures as follows. See image. Maybe it is close to 100 PSI. That meets the minimum of 40 PSI. It was 79 degrees F. Does this reading suggest that I might have a bad compressor? The next step is for me to have the system evacuated and then inject in 4.5 OZ. of R-134a I can do that. When it is evacuated, will some oil be sucked out? IMG_2880.JPG
     
  14. bbrages

    bbrages Member

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    It looks to me like you have enough pressure in there that the compressor should turn on. I don't know much about how to troubleshoot these systems. I guess Techstream or some other advanced scanner is what you need.

    I think it could be a bad compressor, but it could also be several other things.
     
  15. Seymour1

    Seymour1 Junior Member

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    I was hoping to find a better way to find out if the compressor will ever run.
    Is there a way to force it to run? Otherwise, I will pay to have it evacuated, put in freon, then maybe pay to have it evacuated again and then replace the compressor. Although the shops here can re-sell my R-134a, they charge me to have it evacuated. Yes, I am a cheapskate.
     
  16. amarino

    amarino Member

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    Just to be clear, when you do the HVAC panel blink code procedure you get "00"?

    I don't think this is like older cars were you can just jump the pressure switch wiring to trick it to turn on the compressor. The Prius has a few more computers in the way.

    For $20 you can get 2 day access to Toyota TechInfo and download all the manuals over the weekend then use that to troubleshoot. And maybe some place like AutoZone or similar that has another OBD2 scanner they can double check for codes.
     
  17. Seymour1

    Seymour1 Junior Member

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    I have partial T S. It seems to check codes but it would not do the brake air bleed, which requires 2-way communication. It is not getting a DTC. I have a Creader-Totoya. No DTCs. And, the blink codes showed nothing as far as I could tell. Although I have no P0AA6, today I will check the compressor and orange cable with a 500 volt megger. I did have a cut orange cable and replaced it, (another fun job) which removed the previous P0AA6 code. The 12 volt compressor connector pins are not corroded or bent. The 40 amp fuse is good.
     
  18. Seymour1

    Seymour1 Junior Member

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    The blink code did this; The RECIR light blinked one time per second.
    And, today I did a 500 volt megger test. The whole system checked at 1.8 or 1.9 megohms. Then I separated the orange connector from the inverter. The reading was higher than the tester would measure (>100M) There is clearly no leakage in the orange cable or compressor.
    Is there a way that I can jumper the amplifier to cause the compressor to turn on?
    I think that it is time to order another compressor.