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50% oil savings! 15% friction savings! by Ronco

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by bwilson4web, Sep 15, 2010.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Ok, for the most part, claims of '50%' oil savings and '15%' friction reduction should be tossed into the Junk mail folder. Only this one as some credibility although not at these levels:
    Innovative Federal-Mogul Piston Ring Improves Fuel Economy and Emissions by Reducing Oil Consumption by up to 50 Percent and Friction by up to 15 Percent - MarketWatch
    The "50%" and "15%" is totally bogus but the application to the engine rings is the right area.

    They are describing the lower set of oil scavenging rings, not the gas sealing rings that have to block the combustion pressures by pushing against the cylinder walls. The pressure rings are going to be the major friction source, not the oil wiping set. Still, improvements in the lower rings are certainly welcome.

    Now if they combined all rings with a low friction, cylinder material, that would be impressive . . . very impressive. But as for these 'tapered' rings, I would call them "less bad" but not the magic bullet. If I were rebuilding a Prius engine, I would buy them but not with any expectation of an ICE Nirvana.

    Bob Wilson
     
  2. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    Since the job of the oil scraper ring directly impacts oil consumption, I would tend to agree with the first part of their statement.

    However, with the exception of a 2000 GMC Sierra pickup with the Vortec "Like A Knock" 5.3 V8, I have never had a new vehicle since 1990 consume oil, even during break-in. A motor that burns oil will quickly foul the O2 sensors and catalytic converters

    Proper oil selection is even more important with zero-gap and two piece rings. A poor quality oil that causes ring land fill deposits will quickly allow the rings to stick, resulting in blowby and oil consumption.

    There is no magic elixir for that problem. Once the ring land is filled, the only solution is a rebuild
     
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  3. David Beale

    David Beale Senior Member

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    The statement says the rings are for direct injection engines. The current and all past Prius engines are/were not direct injection. The new ring design is non-applicable.
     
  4. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Hi David,

    I saw that too:
    Our 13-to-1 expansion ratio puts us on the border with these engines. I would try them but I would have to have some oil consumption between oil changes to test the oil savings. I'm going change-to-change without the oil ever reaching the fill-line. My oil consumption is all but insignificant although others who drive at higher speeds may have measurable oil consumption between oil changes.

    My interest is in the friction reduction. Now that we have an electric water pump, the next big items are valve and ring drag, hard problems.

    When diamond coatings came out, there was some buzz about using them to line cylinders. Given problems with rates of thermal expansion, it didn't make sense then nor now. The ring vendor discusses diamond coatings but I keep seeing the coating working like a tool to remove the metal layer.

    Bob Wilson
     
  5. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    As far as gaining efficiency, the next step is the same being used by the Prime Mover engine makers like Wartsila or Waukesha: per cylinder spark, fuel, and valve control

    Waukesha is still trying to find a good ring design that lowers friction, but lasts the +30,000 hours before overhaul. That has been a hard engineering challenge, usually results in oil consumption
     
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  6. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I would say in the prius the friction savings aren't likely to amount to much. I doubt they would in any car, its a press release.

    The next obvious step for efficiency is DI. This could be used to either increase hp, or decrease engine size which could reduce friction. Different materials for rings could help but its not the low hanging fruit. Going with a turbo DI small 3 cylinder would likely improve efficiency the most, but with higher cost, complexity, and likely worse NVH.



    A small amount of oil consumption is not necessarily a bad thing, its part of engineering trade offs. A lower friction ring set that causes more overhauls is a bad trade off though:D How much fuel will that mechanic need to get to work to overhaul your slightly more efficient vehicle.
     
  7. mort

    mort New Member

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    This part has me puzzled:
    All the engines I've worked on use a 3 piece oil ring. I wonder what they are talking about.

    -mort
     
  8. David Beale

    David Beale Senior Member

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    Unfortunately -any- oil "consumption" will result in shortened cat life. This is legislative territory!

    In the late 1970s a few motorcycle manufacturers were working on cylinder linings to lower friction (the actual purpose was to increase heat transport for very high output 2-stroke engines - by running on or close to the aluminum "block"). I'm sure we've all heard of or even seen the chrome coatings, which tended to be easily damaged and then pealed off. One manufacturer was trying a nitride coating (sputtered on) that was a dry lubricant as well. Never heard why it didn't succeed in the marketplace.
     
  9. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Thanks, I thought the cats could handle a little oil, but I had no idea how little that is.

    I've helped design machines for making disk drives. We have been able to apply very thin films of lubricant to the disk surface. The problem with these lubricants for engines is they would not stand up to the heat. Someone is going to come up with a good lubricant coating to the cylinder walls.
     
  10. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    As far as piston ring design, consider this carefully monitored engine dyno test of Childs and Albert ZGTF (Zero Gap Tapered Face) rings

    Childs & Albert's Zero-Gap Second Ring - Test, Review - Hot Rod

    The cost for a typical small block is twice that of a regular ring set

    As far as coatings, moly coatings have been around for a long time now
     
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  11. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    [​IMG]

    Does the 50% oil savings & 15% friction savings improve with this?
    ;)

    .
     
  12. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Thanks. That is a better improvement than I would have thought. The link mentioned cost, but from your OP I would think durability would be the bigger problem.