1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

14 to 1 compression ratio on new Camry Hybrid

Discussion in 'Toyota Hybrids and EVs' started by CamryDriver, Jan 24, 2018.

  1. CamryDriver

    CamryDriver Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2018
    541
    391
    0
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    They say the 2018 Camry Hybrid has a 14 to 1 compression ratio. I believe the 14 to 1 ratio really only applies to the expansion ratio. The compression ratio is reduced because the engine runs the Atkinson cycle. The intake valve is not closed during the first part of the compression stroke. I'm guessing the actual compression ratio is closer to 10 to 1 than 14 to 1. Does anybody have more information on this topic? A link?
     
  2. Prodigyplace

    Prodigyplace 2025 Camry XLE FWD

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2016
    11,799
    11,362
    0
    Location:
    Central Virginia
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    XLE
    CamryDriver likes this.
  3. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    22,447
    11,760
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    The engine has a hybrid of port and direct injection. The DI allows higher compression ratios than the older port injection did. IIRC, Mazda's SkyActiv is 13:1 in the US and 14:1 elsewhere.
    The variable valve timing will allow the Camry hybrid engine to run a lower compression ratio for an Atkinsonized cycle for efficiency.
     
  4. CamryDriver

    CamryDriver Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2018
    541
    391
    0
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    I could be wrong, however I believe that DI allows for the engine to run the Atkinson cycle. Otherwise when you left the intake port open you would blow air and fuel backwards into the intake which would be super dangerous and difficult to meter. With direct injection you are only blowing back a puff of air.

    The engine is not a Diesel. It still uses a spark plug and 87 octane unleaded fuel. I don't believe the heads of the engine or the fuel itself could withstand a true 14 to 1 compression ratio. Once again I could be off my rocker. I don't know what the actual compression ratio is (because it is stated as 14 to 1) but I'm nearly sure that 14 to 1 refers to the expansion ratio only. In an Otto cycle the compression and expansion ratio are the same so you avoid this confusion. The Atkinson cycle is another matter...

    I've thought about this quite a little bit, wondering at first why they didn't use the exhaust instead of the intake. The reason is the cam. The exhaust is already closed and the cam would need a complicated shape with a second lobe if they were to use the exhaust. On the other hand at this time of the cycle the intake is already open and the cam just needs to keep it open a little longer which is a much easier thing to do.
     
  5. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    22,447
    11,760
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Atkinsonization is a product of valve timing. Fuel injection type doesn't matter. Direct injection gas engines in consumer cars is newer technology than hybrids and Atkinsonized engines. The first Prius used port injection, and the latest one still does. In fact, what Atkinsonized Otto cycle engines do was done in the Miller cycle back in 1954.

    Fuel vapor getting pushed back isn't an issue. It just gets sucked back into the cylinder next time around, and the air flow from the intake is still going just one way. A carbon filter captures any lingering after the engine is shut off.

    Mazda's SkyActiv engines are Otto cycle, and are 13:1 compression on US regular. They are 14:1 in other markets. The 4 cylinder in the new Camry is 13:1. So the hybrid ICE is likely doing some degree of Atkinsonization all the time.

    Port injected engines require lower ratios with 87 AKI because the fuel is getting compressed with the air, which heats it up. When the air:fuel mixture is ignited by the spark, there is further compression by the burning fuel of the unburnt mixture. That extra compression can be enough to trigger ignition of the unburnt fuel, so there is now multiple ignition points within the cylinder. This is knocking.

    Since direct injection doesn't add fuel to the cylinder until the air is already compressed, the fuel itself hasn't been heated up. Squirting it into the cylinder actually will cool the air some.

    Well, a true Atkinson Cycle engine doesn't adjust any valve timing. Instead the length of the piston strokes is physically changed. The pistons aren't directly connected to the crankshaft. There is a cam in between the two that lets the intake/compression strokes be shorter than the expansion/exhaust ones.

    Since Miller already figured out how to get an effective short compression in the '50s for lower cost, a true Atkinson engine isn't used in any cars. Honda does use it in a stationary generator though. It adds mechanical complexity, but has lower internal friction. The angle of deflection for the piston rod is smaller than in typical piston engines. This means less sideways force of the piston head against the cylinder wall.
     
    Elektroingenieur and CamryDriver like this.
  6. padroo

    padroo Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2008
    2,763
    2,251
    13
    Location:
    Chesterton, Indiana Another third world country.
    Vehicle:
    2016 Prius
    Model:
    Four
    Elektroingenieur and CamryDriver like this.
  7. CamryDriver

    CamryDriver Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2018
    541
    391
    0
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    The existence of a port injected Atkinson engine certainly blows my DI theory out of the water.

    I'm still not ready to let go on my 14 to 1 theory yet. On an Otto cycle engine the compression stroke (and ratio) equals the expansion stroke (and ratio). With an Atkinson engine the entire point is that the compression ratio does not equal the expansion ratio, regardless of how this is accomplished (mechanically or with delayed intake valve closing). If we assume the actual compression ratio really is 14 to 1 the expansion ratio must then be even larger or the engine would not be running an Atkinson cycle.

    The non-hybrid Camry appears to have the same bore and stroke as the hybrid, yet the non-hybrid states a compression ratio of 13 to 1 while the hybrid's is said to be 14 to 1. This must mean the hybrid's head has a slightly smaller combustion chamber.

    The Mazda 14 to 1 engines require premium fuel. We get the 13 to 1 version so we can run cheaper gas.

    The Camry Hybrid will run on 87 octane fuel yet the compression ratio is stated to be 14 to 1. I really still think that 14 to 1 is the expansion ratio...
     
  8. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    12,470
    6,871
    2
    Location:
    Greenwood MS USA
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Three
    it is however, the reason for a long intake tract on the prius, so that fuel/air mixture does not get released to the outside air. Owners who try to put 'shorty' intakes tend to get codes due to odd F/A mixtures.

    [​IMG]
     
    CamryDriver likes this.
  9. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    22,447
    11,760
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    These are Otto cycle engines which mimic the differing expansion and compression ratios of the Atkinson cycle through valve timing. In truth, they are actually Miller cycle engines without a supercharger. An Atkinson cycle engine has those aforementioned cams between the pistons and crankshaft. Atkinson developed this engine to get around Otto's patents. It trades power for efficiency, and that is so for Atkinsonized Ottos too.

    Variable valve timing is an old technology that has been steadily improving. It is reaching the point in which an Otto engine can run at a full Atkinsonized cyslce to improve efficiency under low loads

    I agree that the 14:1 is an expansion ratio, but the variable valve timing could mean it that a 13:1 compression ratio is possible for high power demands.


    In some countries, the regular is higher octane than what we get in the US. All else being equal, the higher compression will use less gas in addition to making more power.
     
    CamryDriver likes this.
  10. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2004
    45,024
    16,242
    41
    Location:
    Canada
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    With an Atkinson cycle engine, the 14:1 compression ratio isn't the same as an Otto 14:1 compression ratio. I vaguely recall someone asking that way back when the Gen 2 was launched... they had a very similar question (how can it be running such a high compression ratio on 87 octane without knocking).

    The effective compression ratio is lower because of the atkinson cycle allowing more air/fuel mixture into the intake portion. I don't know if I can find that thread but I'll try.

    Edit: I'll just explain it.


    The compression ratio listed is the geometric compression ratio - so basically it has the same cylinder/piston volume and design as a 14:1 compression ratio Otto cycle engine. The reason why it run at a supposedly high compression ratio without premium fuel is because it's running on the Atkinson cycle. As we know, it allows some air-fuel mixture back into the intake port by delaying the closing of the intake valve, this effectively lowers the compression ratio because you've "added" volume to the combustion chamber by including the volume of air-fuel mixture that's in the intake port.

    Hopefully that makes sense.


    Also, to complicate things further, variable valve timing changes the compression ratios so even on Otto cycles, the engine only runs at its compression ratio under high load. Under light load, VVT will delay the closing of the intake valve to improve fuel economy so the compression ratio is lower anyway.
     
    #10 Tideland Prius, Jan 25, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2018
  11. CamryDriver

    CamryDriver Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2018
    541
    391
    0
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Makes perfect sense. I am curious with the "real" compression is after some of the pressure is allowed to escape out the intake. If anyone has a hard number.
     
  12. Elektroingenieur

    Elektroingenieur Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    2,515
    3,268
    9
    Location:
    California
    Vehicle:
    2016 Prius
    Model:
    Three Touring
    I glanced through Toyota’s New Car Features book for the 2018 Camry HV and the section on the A25A-FKS engine in their course TIN517B, Fall 2017 New Technology Update, but I didn’t see anything; it’s not relevant information for servicing, since compression tests are done in a special diagnostic mode.

    Perhaps Toyota will submit an SAE technical paper or publish an article in the Toyota Technical Review.
     
  13. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    22,447
    11,760
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    It is too new for those details to be out yet.
    The ICE Camry 4 cylinder likely does run at its 13:1 under high load. Being based upon that engine, the hybrid could run as high, in theory. The effective highest compression ratio it does reach is likely lower than that, since the car has an electric motor helping the ICE out, but only Toyota knows what that actual value is.
     
    Tideland Prius likes this.
  14. CamryDriver

    CamryDriver Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2018
    541
    391
    0
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    I ran across some interesting terminology where upon in an article they called a ratio on an Atkinson engine the "geometric compression ratio", perhaps to differentiate this number from the actual compression ratio after letting a little pressure out the intake. I believe that the geometric compression ratio is what I'd call the expansion ratio.
     
    Trollbait likes this.
  15. CamryDriver

    CamryDriver Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2018
    541
    391
    0
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    I see Tideland had already used "geometric" term earlier with his explanation. You guys really know your stuff!
     
    padroo likes this.