Toyota's runaway-car worries may not stop at floor mats-LA TIMES

I agree with this completely. Your mind is racing, but not evaluating the situation. Holding the button down for 3 seconds will seem like an eternity, with nothing happening.

I remember driving my uncle's tractor, turning it around in his farmyard. I was used to our smaller tractors, but this one had an over-active regulator, so when I pushed the brakes, it actually surged forward. Thinking I had pushed the wrong pedal somehow, I gave up on the brake (it would have worked in another second had I waited), put it into neutral and lowered the gas position, but not before running over a pile of 12V batteries, a bicycle, and very narrowly missing the side of his garage.

In another earlier case, I was trying out my sister's new bicycle, a ten-speed. My bike had the coaster brakes on the pedals, hers obviously the hand brakes. She stopped in front of me, I only had a second to respond, and pushing the pedals backwards did nothing. Had I thought it thru, I had two choices - steer around her, or use the hand brakes. I did neither and drove over her bike as she jumped out of the way.

I had a teenager drive her car into mine when I was stopped for a full second (partially in her lane, I admit, as she came over a hill) and we were the only cars in sight. She could have easily moved to the other lane, but instead she actually steered out of her lane towards the danger as I suspect she drove where she was looking and not towards safety. I have a picture of the tire tracks to prove it. (I was trying to find reverse, but I was also looking at her car instead of the gear indicator, and wasn't sure I was in reverse, so there was a fault on my side as well).

That's not to say I have bad reflexes or a slow mind. I can give other examples where I actually prevented a broken bone by a split second decision, or calmly reacted to a low air-tank situation while scuba diving, etc. But in some cases, you brain freezes up like a deer in headlights. If the brakes don't work as expected, particularly in an unfamiliar car like the policeman was, you may not think carefully about your next option.

 

Mats? could have been an issue.
Brakes on fire? I have never seen that in a commercial vehicle. On F1, they get red, but they never burst into flames.
He did all he could? likely - but nobody was there to witness it - so we don't really know what was going on. Having a shouting family around you panicking together with you does not help.
"On" button to be pressed 3 secs to turn off? not a bad idea actually - turning off the engine on normal cars, shuts off the powersteering, the ABS, the brake assists - controlling the car is way more difficult - do you really want to turn the engine off? By the way - the button is used also on BMWs and Renaults and never heard of problems in the EU. What happens with the Prius when pressing the ON button for 3 secs - I don't know, probably need to check the user's manual again (where I had read about the 3 secs already).
Not actuating the hand-brake - this is the only thing I have trouble with the Prius really - the pedal to the left, means that if I cannot actuate it, nobody else possibly present in the car, can actuate it for me. The central handbrake is way better. But I am often driving by myself, so.... And Mercedes has the pedal brake as well, since years - never heard of people having accidents because it doesn't work. And if the driver gets sick, usually there is an accident in any way - have you ever tried to move 50kg or more of lifeless body weight while on the highway? I would panic, hold on to dear life and to my seat belt and hope the best.
The only thing that could have happened, if the accelerator was drive-by-wire, but I don't know how this particular Lexus model looks like or is in that sense, is that the mat stuck it, or there is a software bug. In both cases, breaking would have been enough. If bad luck dictates that even putting the car in N was not working due to software or hardware/mechanical failure, then there is a problem, but surely there was not much else to do than break really hard, use the pedal brake and use the guard-rail/new jersey to slow down or use other cars to stop. Before heading 120mph down a ramp.
But again, nobody was there - so we can speculate as much as we want.
Moreover, there are millions of cars on the road, many more complex even than the Prius (think BMW 7 or Porsches or Audi's, Infiniti's etc.) with even more electronics. I don't read too many news (fortunately!!!!) of car accidents due to suddenly speeding (and not stoppable) cars.
My 2 cents on the topic.

 

Report: Toyota faulty throttles caused by more than jammed car mats

This article shows what probably happened. It has a picture of the mat/pedal interference which I had not seen before.

Brakes can be caught on fire in many cars by flooring the gas , getting up to speed and then flooring the brakes past the point of brake fade while keeping the gas down (this takes a while, is not safe etc etc).

 

Anyone knows why this kind of events looks to have happen only with US models. Sorry, but I have no news from EU Prius users events. I know that rear breaks un 2G (US vs EU models) are not the same.

Thanks

 

My guess is that it has more to do with our legal system than any differences between U.S. and EU cars. When anything like this happens in the U.S., a flock of lawyers descends and lawsuits are filed. In the EU, liability is more statutory, so there is less litigation in the event of an incident. Without the drama of a big court case, you get less press coverage.

Tom

 

I'm not sure I know how to "shift" into "Neutral?"

 

Push the shift knob to the 'N' position and hold for 3 seconds.

 

We also have one federal agency charged with vehicle safety, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, that conducts its business in one language. So it may be we've got a system designed to detect and share vehicle safety issues ... sad to say built upon the blood and bones of our dead.

We also have a tendency to cover a lot distance in our cars each year due to the long distances and open borders between our States as well as the suburb living style and lack of public transportation. The average USA vehicle travels ~15,000 miles / 24,000 km each year. More travel means a higher probability of having an incident occur.

Bob Wilson

 

Or press Park while at speed.

Tom

 

I did a simple test. Going about 35 mph I shifted into neutral. Engine went to idle and I eventually rolled to a safe stop....but the engine died. I had to restart and move into D again

 

Looks like a bit of media hype going on here. The judgement quickly shifts from the Lexus 350 to the Prius. The Prius had nothing to do with the story. And the Lexus is a different kind of beast--it's a "hybrid" with a very powerful gas engine that accelerates 0-60 in 7 seconds--and gets non-hybrid gas mileage--in the 20s.

I don't know what happened in that accident, but it had nothing to do with the Prius.
And trying to connect "sudden acceleration" to floor mat creep is ridiculous. My floor mats are anchored and can't move. Non-anchored mats can be a problem in any car--nothing to do with Toyota or the Prius.

Watch out for agendas in the media. They depend on advertisers, and the competition for reader or viewer attention is considerable.

 

Are you familiar with the operation of your vehicle? Your ICE neither "went to idle" nor did it "die", there's just no need for it to run when you shifted into N (unless you're exceeding 41mph when you shift into neutral.)

 

Having owned multiple Lexus for 14 years and having driven nearly all of them, I've never had an issue with floor mats. The one time I had a mat slip was b/c I didn't install them properly.

I DIDN'T PANIC.

I calmly let off the gas and pulled the carpet. Pulled over, parked and installed.

This is COMPLETELY overblown.

 

This USA Today article covers what we'd already discussed but includes a link to the NHTSA accident study from the investigator. The NHTSA photos are telling:

Government cites Toyota's push-button start button as factor in deadly crash - Drive On: A conversation about the cars and trucks we drive - USATODAY.com

http://i.usatoday.net/money/_pdfs/09-1026-nhtsa-memo.pdf
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The NHTSA memo includes some pretty grim photos including the one showing the floor mat melted into the accelerator pedal.

Bob Wilson

 

The Lexus ES 350 is not a Hybrid. The only 'hybrid' part of this story is that the incorrect floor mat installed in the loaner car was from a hybrid SUV, (not a Prius) but it could have been from any car, it was just not the right mat.

The engine is not the same as a Prius. (3.5 liter V6 vs 1.5 or 1.8 liter I4)
The transmission is not the same as a Prius (Six-speed sequential-shift automatic transmission vs Electronically controlled continuously variable transmission)

I see attempts to drag the Prius into this accident, but there is very little similar about the two cars: Both are manufactured by Toyota with a push button start. (Both have 4 wheels, powered by front wheel drive, and have air conditioning, but that describes a LOT of cars)

The important thing they have in common (along with many other cars) is that a floor mat from a Lexus RX400H is not the right mat for these cars.

 

In this we agree. One thing I've learned from reading aviation accident reports is how so many failures have to happen, one after another, to cause the accident or fatalities. Break one of those links and the outcome would have been different or at least less severe.

It is too soon to say what fixes might apply but several come to mind:

• Brake negates accelerator - simple, trivial and intuitive
• Over-center OFF - simple push for ON but a deeper, push for OFF
• Park and accelerator force charge - simple, safe, and effective

But these are idle speculations having nothing to do with whatever system may finally be implemented.

Bob Wilson

 

Again here it goes more hyper defensiveness.

We have multiple deaths and a known problem. The whole point in these cases is that you CAN'T let off the gas, the pedal is jammed down. You would not feel its overblown if someone you knew died that way.

 

Had the situation been in a Prius, the driver may have had those choices, not all the solutions for a Prius might be applicable to an ES350. (I like multiple pushes equals off)

Shift to neutral would redline the engine in a ES350, but is harmless in a Prius.

You can shift into R or P while moving in a Prius and you get N. Trying to shift to N is slower than R or P, oddly. I would not suggest shifting to R or P in a runaway ES350.

There are occasions where both accelerator and brakes are applied at the same time in cars.

In most FWD cars trail braking is a legitimate technique, as the brakes act to shift weight and traction to the front tires. Trail braking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Launch Control would be useful when racing Prius. (I seriously doubt the wisdom of anyone buying a Prius to race) Launch control (automotive) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A solution that the report dwells on, the ES350 (and the Prius) have a one piece accelerator, many cars have the pedal hinged on the shaft. http://z.about.com/d/autorepair/1/0/C/6/84816660.gif Being able to tip the peddle may have dislodged the mat.

 

On a car that shares almost no technology with a Prius. (This is Prius chat) I have no trouble discussing how to make a Lexus ES350 work more safely with incorrect floor mats, I just object to pretending that makes it a Prius problem.

(It will be a Prius problem, for the same reason that after a subway accident, more people sue the subway than were riders when the car crashed, the rush for 'free' money. There are no technical solutions for that, other than the one proposed by Shakespeare. William Shakespeare Quote | Quotation from William Shakespeare | Lawyers Quote | Wisdom Quotes | The first thing we do, let's kill all | William Shakespeare Quotation)

 

All race cars have a "kill switch" designed for just that emergency. Solution can't be that difficult. With all those electronic genenis in Prius land probably can come up with a solution.