Headlight problem

Has anyone heard from the NHTSA as to why this issue has not been elvated to an EA (Engineering Analysis) yet?

The PE stage of the investigation is only supposed to be 4 months and with hundreds of documented complaints this one shouldn't have taken even that long to be elevated. We are already well past the 4 month mark from April 17th so was wondering if anyone had any ideas?

We need a recall to get these lights fixed!!!!!

Chris

 

All -

Well, it looks like the NHTSA has decided to take no action. They have closed the Prius HID headlight (PE09-019) investigation without moving towards a recall.

A loss for the consumer, a black-eye for NHTSA and win for Toyota corporate.

Details...

ODI OPENED THIS INVESTIGATION AFTER RECEIVING REPORTS THAT BOTH HEADLIGHTS WOULD GO OUT, OR EXTINGUISH WHILE DRIVING. THE SUBJECT VEHICLES ARE EQUIPPED WITH HIGH INTENSITY DISCHARGE (HID) HEADLAMPS THAT OPERATE ON INDEPENDENT LAMPS AND ECU'S (ELECTRONIC CONTROL UNITS) FOR EACH HEADLIGHT, MEANING THAT EACH HEADLIGHT RUNS INDEPENDENTLY OF THE OTHER, AND A FAILURE IN ONE LAMP OR ECU DOES NOT NECESSARILY RESULT IN A FAILURE OF THE OTHER. DURING THE INVESTIGATION, A RANDOM SAMPLE OF FORTY CONSUMERS WAS CONTACTED BY ODI IN A TELEPHONE SURVEY TO VERIFY THEIR EXPERIENCES. THE CONSUMERS STATED IN COMPLAINTS TO TOYOTA THAT BOTH HEADLIGHTS FAILED AT THE SAME TIME. ODI DISCOVERED THROUGH TALKING WITH THESE COMPLAINANTS THAT IN FACT ONE HEADLIGHT WOULD BEGIN TO FLICKER AND THEN CUT OFF. THE OTHER HEADLIGHT WOULD STILL BE OPERATIONAL. IN A FEW CASES WHERE NO ACTION WAS TAKEN, SOME COMPLAINANTS STATED THAT AFTER A FEW MONTHS BOTH HEADLAMPS WOULD BEGIN TO FAIL RESULTING IN NO HEADLIGHTS; HOWEVER NONE REPORTED THAT BOTH LAMPS FAILED SIMULTANEOUSLY. COMPLAINANTS ALSO STATED THAT THEY COULD TOGGLE THE HEADLAMP SWITCH ON AND OFF TO TEMPORARILY RESTORE LIGHTING WHEN THIS CONDITION OCCURRED, EVEN IN CASES WERE BOTH HEADLAMPS WERE EXTINGUISHED. ADDITIONALLY, A HEADLIGHT LAMP OUT WARNING INDICATOR WOULD BE PRESENT ON THE INSTRUMENT PANEL WHEN EITHER LAMP WAS OUT. THE RESULTS OF THIS SURVEY ARE LARGELY CONSISTENT WITH ODI'S ASSESSMENT OF THE REPORTS AND WARRANTY DATA. TOYOTA SUBMITTED IN RESPONSE TO ODI'S INFORMATION REQUEST LETTER THAT, GENERALLY SPEAKING, ONLY ONE LAMP FAILED AT A TIME, AND THAT TOGGLING THE SWITCH RESTORED THE LAMP. TOYOTA REQUESTED A MEETING WITH ODI AND ON AUGUST 6, 2009, PRESENTED THEIR ASSESSMENT OF HEADLAMP FAILURE. TOYOTA CONFIRMED THAT A HEADLAMP COULD EXTINGUISH WHILE DRIVING DUE TO A BULB FAILURE, AND THAT IT COULD BE TEMPORARILY RESTORED BY TURNING THE HEADLIGHT SWITCH ON AND OFF, AND THAT SIMULTANEOUS FAILURE OF BOTH HEADLAMPS WAS RARE AND UNLIKELY. TOYOTA ALSO BRIEFLY DISCUSSED THEIR INTENTION TO CONDUCT A CUSTOMER SERVICE CAMPAIGN TO ADDRESS CONSUMER DISSATISFACTION WITH HID BULB FAILURES. SINCE THERE IS STILL ONE HEADLIGHT OPERATING WHEN THE OTHER ONE CUTS OFF, THERE IS STILL LIGHTING AVAILABLE TO GET THE VEHICLE TO A REPAIR FACILITY. THUS, A SAFETY DEFECT TREND HAS NOT BEEN IDENTIFIED AT THIS TIME AND FURTHER USE OF AGENCY RESOURCES DOES NOT APPEAR TO BE WARRANTED. ACCORDINGLY THIS INVESTIGATION IS CLOSED. THE CLOSING OF THIS INVESTIGATION DOES NOT CONSTITUTE A FINDING BY NHTSA THAT A SAFETY-RELATED DEFECT DOES NOT EXIST. THE AGENCY WILL TAKE FURTHER ACTION IF WARRANTED BY THE CIRCUMSTANCES.

 

Thank you sir may I have another.

Does anyone have this option? Anyone in THE WORLD?

Wow!!!! I gotta go find my donut my arse is suddenly extremely sore.

Chris

 

There are two headlight-out indicators located at the front of the car. A failure of both headlamps can be noticed when both are out.

Tom

 

Well how about that!
My drivers side headlight goes out. 78000 mile 2 years 5 months Approx 700 hours of headlight burn time. Toyota extended warrenty. Major service at my Dealer. Tire change and they broke the low pressure sensor, Ok I break stuff all the time. It took them 3.5 hours to reset the sensor which I had to go back and get it reset the next day. for another hour (Not a confidence builder) So I change my Oil and filters at home with Toyota parts.
Do a little Prius Chat research. I fill out the NHTSA claim. I go to my dealer Dar Cars Toyota in Frederick. for estimate. $174/bulb. Total parts and labor for 2 bulbs $550. Open a Toyota case #, awaiting call back today. Read 37 pages of this thread - skip to the end cause I got to go and see the NHTSA determination. Let's see if this changes Toyota's tune. Maybe the deal is ok Uncle Sam give us a by on the safety issue and we will take care of our customers. Or more than likely pound dirt buddy.
As a side note my last car a Subaru Outback lights burned up at 70000 but they were always on. Halogen bulbs $12.99 I splurged and replaced both.
The plan is to run the Prius for another 120000 or so. But rest assured I will remember when it come time for a new car. Hopefully there will be some good American high mileage options by then.
Hopefully this is just a bulb issue.

A question for someone who has done there own service. I don't have small hands XL gloves and they are better in XXL gloves. Anyway lets say I want to turn off the black 3" disk cover to access the light it would be counter clockwise as I'm looking from the driver's seat correct? Any hints here I tried just a quick removal of the fuse box lid and twist and could not get it to move. I didn't want to force it till I checked here. I'm assuming the bumper removal allows a better purchase on the fins.
Anyone have photos up?
Thanks
John

 

If anyone would like to follow-up on the NHTSA PE09-019 Toyota Prius HID investigation closure (and decision not to issue a recall) here’s some contact information that is provided on the NHTSA website for NHTSA and Toyota employees who were involved with investigation and decision.

The contact information is available at this link:

ODI - Office of Defects Investigation

Search for PE0919 and then click on “Document Search†button near the bottom of the page.


National Highway Traffic Safety Administration:

Ali Motamedamin
Email: [email protected]
Phone: (202) 366-7021
Principal Investigator
Office of Defects Investigation
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration

Thomas Z. Copper
Division Chief
Vehicle Integrity Division
Office of Defects Investigation
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
1200 New Jersey Ave. SE
Washington. DC 20590

Kathkeen C. DeMeter
Office Director
Office of Defects Investigation
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration



Toyota Motor North America, Inc.:

Mr. Christopher J. Tinto
Email: [email protected]
Vice President
Toyota Motor North America, Inc.
Technical and Regulatory Affairs
301 Thirteenth Street, NW
Suite 910 South
Washington, DC 20005

Chris Santucci
Email: [email protected]
Office: (202) 463-6856
Fax: (202) 463-8513
Assistant Manager
Toyota Motor North America, Inc.
Technical and Regulatory Affairs
301 Thirteenth Street, NW
Suite 910 South
Washington, DC 20005

 

Since they have gone to Halogen.. I'm sure they are hoping this will just go away.

 

It will, once we are all left in the dark.

Tom

 

Well I hate to be a rebel rouser... but I guess its time for a class action lawsuit?

 

CBarr31 -

You bring up a good issue.

"...ADDITIONALLY, A HEADLIGHT LAMP OUT WARNING INDICATOR WOULD BE PRESENT ON THE INSTRUMENT PANEL WHEN EITHER LAMP WAS OUT."

I have a 2006 Prius. It does not have a "HEADLIGHT LAMP OUT WARNING INDICATOR".

A reference to a headlight out warning indicator clearly indicates that the investigation is, at best, flawed... or, at worst, the conclusion is simply fabricated.

It would be interesting to hear the Principle Investigator's (Ali Motamedamin) reason for mentioning a headlight out warning indicator.

Ali Motamedamin
Email: [email protected]
Phone: (202) 366-7021
Principal Investigator
Office of Defects Investigation
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration

 

Now.. thats a good idea

 

Well, I guess I'm late to this party.

I've been having the same problem with my 2006 Prius lately, first one light, then the other, alternately...took it to the dealer and was told they'd never heard of such a thing (!) and after 2 hours couldn't find the problem, couldn't replicate it, yada, yada...

They told me that to replace the computer board for the headlights was going to be $800+ for each headlight! (To their credit, they didn't suggest I do this, but could offer me no other solutions, either.) They said they notated my visit in case I was ever stopped by the police. Well, that's nice, but what happens when I want to drive at night? Then, that same afternoon, BOTH lights went out at once, for the first time that I was aware of.

Came home determined to look around on the internet to see if anyone else had run into this, and well...you know the rest of the story!

 

Yea as doubtful as I am considering hours of googling this problem hasn't suggested such an obviouse fix (although most prius owners are mechanically tarded) your post inspired me to fire up the coffee pot, go out in the blazing heat and fiddle once again with connections. I personaly believe its all either programed in the computer or designed to fail, convieniently 2 weeks after the warranty expires (for me at least) Being a safety hazard and a possible ticket, your forced to take it in the backside to get fixed. Funny how only one goes out at a time, like they dont want you to die before geting a good piece of you. Maeby I am paranoid , or am I? If you read this and have same problems, please consider joining me by raising a stink to Toyota and the national institute of highway safety to stop the rape!! Or at least have the bass turds fix it for free before you get pulled over or worse, in an accident. Thanks for the technology to be able to connect with the world and stop such un-fairness.

 

I know this is a crazy long thread but neither of my cars had any blackening on any connections... simply replacing the bulb with cheap ebay bulbs fixed the problem.. that was some 35K miles ago.
69.00 will buy you both bulbs and you can do it yourself.
I for one and many others have made numerous posts about this and the details of how to do it to help first timers.

Here is another link in case the 570+ posts on this thread is not enough!... LOL!

Here is a thread I started myself when I replaced mine.

Here is one more that zero's in on the problem

lastly, here is another exhaustive thread. Beware the last link can be confusing at it talks about both HID as well as Halogen installations.

 

OK, this is a bit wierd but here it goes to finish my above comments re my headlight problem:

same HID bulb went out 1 year and one week later.

Dublin Toyota, after a bit of arguing, agreed to warranty the actual bulb and just charge me $165 labor to install - and no they would not just give me the bulb to install.

I took it in to Dublin Toyota and paid the $165 and ended up with two different color headlights when illuminated- one blue tint and one yellow tint

After much argument, Dublin Toyota agreed to replace the other bulb so they both matched, saying Toyota had updated the bulb for the '05, resulting in a different color.

I get the car back and the color is correct but now my car has two used, scratched, chipped, 2006 or newer headlights installed with no clear bra, and a high pitch squeal when turned on like a ballast going bad. My car is an '05 and the headlight design changed slightly in '06.

I point this out to Dublin Toyota and they tell me I am nuts and no one removed the headlights from my car and I do not know what I am talking about. They merely replaced the bulbs from the back side of the headlight (impossible by the way)

Car goes to another Toyota dealer and they confirm different year headlights and squeal and also suspect ballast going bad.

Several more arguments with Dublin Toyota and they finally agree and replace both my headlights, bulbs and ballasts with all new 2005 parts on their dime.

Took 6 trips total to resolve. I ended up complaining to the Bureau of Automotive Repair, Toyota Customer Relations, and letters to the owner of Dublin Toyota and their GM. Needless to say, I will never take my car back to Dublin Toyota. I was quite disappointed with the way this was handled by Dublin Toyota.

 

Hey, cairo94507,

Glad everything has worked out for you, but you never should have had this happen to you in the first place. Even though your post #549 & #553 just touched on your one-year-ago H/L replacement & that you were having to take your car back for another H/L replacement again, this is NOT the thread you started about all the difficulties & under-handedness you experienced at the hands of Dublin Toyota (so some may be a little confused by your most recent post just above mine).

For any of you readers who wish to see more details of what cairo went through, see all of his posts in this thread : http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-ii-prius-main-forum/66241-continued-hid-bulb-problems.html

cairo, one more concern is yet to be addressed : is Dublin Toyota going to pay you to have your clearbra material (that you lost when Dublin stole your original headlights) installed on your new ones? They owe you that too to make you whole again. Please post your answer to this back in your original thread (that I linked above). It may be a good idea to cut & paste your post #575 here back into that thread also (just for continuity).

Ken (in Bolton,Ct)

 

Lawsuit claims that Toyota repeatedly concealed information from the National Highway Traffic Safety

All -

Lawsuit claims that Toyota repeatedly concealed information from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration

An interesting article in the LA Times (Latimes.com). Seems like Toyota may have a history of concealing information from the NHTSA.

"... Toyota repeatedly concealed information from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration on Toyota's compliance with regulations for roof strength. The company went through a "relentless effort to prevent evidence of its vehicles' structural shortcomings from being known," the lawsuit said.


Toyota Concealed Evidence in Rollover Cases, Ex-attorney Alleges

In a lawsuit, lawyer says Toyota repeatedly forced him to illegally withhold information from victims of hundreds of accidents that resulted in deaths and injuries.
By W.J. Hennigan

September 1, 2009

Toyota spent years concealing evidence from victims of hundreds of rollover accidents that resulted in death and injury, a former top lawyer for the automaker says.

The accusation, spelled out in a lawsuit filed in federal court, has the potential to reopen cases that Toyota Motor Corp. won or settled for two decades, legal experts said.

Dimitrios P. Biller of Pacific Palisades, a former managing counsel for Toyota Motor Sales USA Inc., said in the suit that the company repeatedly forced him to illegally withhold information from opposing lawyers and made him resign in September 2007.

"We understand that these are serious allegations, but his life has been destroyed by Toyota's actions," Biller's attorney, Jeffrey Allen, said Monday. "This is the stuff of Hollywood movies."

Biller, who said the company gave him a $3.7-million severance payment, declined to comment.

Toyota released a statement calling Biller's allegations "inaccurate and misleading." In court documents, the company called him a disgruntled employee looking to retaliate for having to resign his position.

In the July 24 lawsuit filed in federal court in Los Angeles, Biller accuses the world's largest automaker of destroying data in more than 300 accidents that proved vehicle roofs were substandard.

Also in the lawsuit, he alleges the company illegally withheld e-mails and other computer-stored information from victims' attorneys.

Clarence Ditlow, executive director of the Center for Auto Safety, a consumer advocacy group in Washington, said that if what Biller says is true, the financial repercussions for Toyota could be massive.

"The allegations are very serious," Ditlow said. "The bottom line is that Toyota has a mess on its hands."

Biller worked for Torrance-based Toyota Motor Sales from 2003 to 2007, he said. In his position, he was involved in defending the company in cases in which sport utility vehicles and trucks were in rollover accidents.

Victims in these cases, often seriously injured or killed because of crushed roofs, contended in their lawsuits that injuries and deaths were a direct result of Toyota's weak roofs.

According to Biller's suit, Toyota repeatedly concealed information from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration on Toyota's compliance with regulations for roof strength. The company went through a "relentless effort to prevent evidence of its vehicles' structural shortcomings from being known," the lawsuit said.

Toyota maintained that it did not act outside the law.

"Toyota takes its legal obligations seriously and works to uphold the highest professional and ethical standards," the company said in its statement.

The company moved unsuccessfully to seal the complaint from public view, saying it was filled with confidential information.

Tab Turner, a product liability attorney from Little Rock, Ark., said that if Toyota loses the case, it could call into question settlements and court judgments in which Biller was involved.

Turner was the lead attorney in a 2005 federal court case in Mississippi against Toyota that was settled out of court. He represented a pregnant woman and her fetus who were brain-damaged when the 1996 Toyota 4Runner she was driving rolled over in an accident.

Biller alleged he was subjected to intimidation and harassment by Toyota employees, both when he was employed at Toyota and after he left.

As a result, Biller said in the lawsuit, he's been in psychiatric treatment for the last four years. In 2007, he said, he was diagnosed with major depressive syndrome.

Biller said that at the time he agreed to the $3.7-million severance agreement, he "was being treated and medicated for the psychiatric and physical problems from which he was suffering."

Toyota said Biller's agreement forbade him from discussing company information and he violated that deal by filing the lawsuit.

"We are disappointed that Mr. Biller has elected to file this lawsuit in an attempt to avoid what we believe are his obligations as an attorney formerly employed by Toyota," the company said.

william.hennigan@

latimes.com

twitter.com/wjhenn
Copyright © 2009, The Los Angeles Times

 

Hey, cool your jets there fella. I didn't make that statement, it was another poster. I did, however, say that there are *two* headlight out indicators located on the front of the car. You have to get out, walk around, and look at them to see if they are indicating. Next time I will remember to add the [humor][/humor] flags to make it more obvious.

Tom

 

If this helps someone else Great. Here is a recap.
78000 miles
2007 with HID lights
Dealer Quote for one light. " sorry we don't fix one light cause the other will probably go bad soon any way.
$174/ bulb X 2 = $348 for the parts
$202 for the labor.
Total estimate $550 for 2 bulbs
Filed with NHTSA 9/1/2009
Filed with Toyota Corp 9/1/2009
9/4/2009 Toyota offered to cover cost of 2 bulbs $348 and I pick up the labor of $202.
I said thanks but no thanks and they immeditaly countered to cover 75% of the entire bill or $412. My out of pocket would be $550 and a reimbursement approx 5 weeks later.
So $550 out of my savings add $10 in interest or $560 then a credit of $412 so the total cost is something like $148 for 2 bulbs.
I should probably just take it and run. But I will just install the ebay bulbs for $49. Skin my knuckles, zap myself and take twice as long as a certified toyota tech.
Asked if I could just get the bulbs from the dealer and install them myself. NOPE.
Asked if they made directions available to the customer to avoid making a costly mistake. NOPE.
A Nail in the coffin of Toyota being my next car. YEP.
In hindsight if the dealer said it would be $150 to replace both bulbs they are a gorilla to get out I would have grumbled but just sucked it up and paid for the bulbs, after all they are HID lights! But no I spend 2 hours reading Prius chat Headlight Problems discussion, 3 hours installing 2 bulbs. 2 weeks wondering if I need to cycle my head light everytime I see a Cop. I feel a life lesson coming!

 

At least you now have the warm fuzzy feeling ok knowing your not dependent upon the man to bend you over next time you need to change your lights!.... geez!.. its just a light change for cryin out loud... you think we were asking them to change out the intake manifold or something by the price they want to charge! But Toyota and the Toyota dealers are two different entities and Toyota tries to stay out of their negotiations on price etc as they have the right to screw...opps.. I mean deal with who they will how they can to make the most profit and still keep business and good relations. Unfortunately, the latter is not always a priority. Some are reasonable and some are unscrupulous. Toyota's hand to save is limited concerning dealer activity to a large degree.... . However they "could" offer to do a recall!