GM wants a 230MPG rating from the EPA

Re: it's because of their track record

That's an unfounded assertion that you're passing off as fact. Have you visted ANY GM-specific forum, ever? The 2mode system is usually hailed for its advanced technology, but derided due to cost.

That said, the Silverado Hybrid starts in the upper $30Ks, which is where a lot of well-optioned, personal use fullsize pickup trucks are priced.

 

Atkinson cycle patent expired a very long time ago.

You are confused between Atkinson cycle and Atkinson engine. The link you provided looks nothing like an Atkinson cycle engine in the Prius. Prius uses VVT-i mechanism to achieve the Atkinson cycle (expansion is higher than compression) using the same hardware from Otto cycle engine. For more info: http://www2.toyota.co.jp/en/tech/environment/ths2/engine.html

Another manufacturer can come up with their version of Atkinson cycle engine with those unique moving parts. That would defeat the point of sharing parts with the Otto cycle engines. This would in turn make the engine more expensive and prolong development / testing cycle.

GM can put whatever ICE they want in the Volt as long as it has 37% thermal efficiency to be competitive with Prius 50 MPG when the Volt is in CS mode.

 

Now I especially like this train of thought. It's like it's all been made only now we have to try and make it affordable.... of course along the way small improvements are made. Not that I think that's all there is to it either, but maybe it's a little like memory cards. When 1G came out... wow! ...and it was expensive, but now you can practically get 2G's for next to nothing.

I'm all for solar panels too. Hell if some company would streamline an aftermarket solar panel powered ventilation system I'd probably think about getting one.

 

Your right its all been made.. in fact if you start doing much study on utube and google you will see that battery technology is far ahead of NiMh and even LiIon and LiPO.... the price is just too crazy to access.

They can make solar panels now at 1/20th the cost... but do you see them on the market..... oh no!.. that would take someones lucrative profit away as every new house would be full of then on their rooftops!.....

We as a race can do "lots" technologically, but politics and money hinder us... our greed hides the golden goose and destroys all the eggs for fear someone else will hatch their own..... and the enrons and all the other companies extend a step furthur and choke the gooses neck with a tight fist as they grab for the money that falls out of its mouth.

We have technology to make giant francis turbines underwater off the coasts of every shoreline and pass, wind, hydro.... on an on, but only a few companies step out and take a chance to fail and are willing to pay the price to make it work with thier effort and money while others are just "wanna be's" that talk the talk but can't "or won't" walk the walk.
This is Toyota's main attribute.. guts and faith... they lead the way by putting their money where there mouth is.

Technology is not at all what is hindering us.

 

That is exactly what I clearly was saying.

Not confused at all here, I have said all along that GM can do Atkinson cycle using other techniques. The Toyota patent does not even preclude them from using nearly identical hardware to the Otto cycle engine. The Toyota patent is VERY specific (as most patents should be) about a system to reduce knock under varying engine loads. As you yourself have stated they have used late closing valves without any patent problem (with less results).

 

Re: it's because of their track record

actually, GM's CAFE numbers are a lot lower than Toyota's...

And those GM hybrids dont sell at all.

Heck, just look at Ford and not Toyota. Ford is behaving like real company should. They are offering their solutions right now and not selling vaporware. And Fords sales are rising, GM sales are dropping.

 

Here is where you originally said that the Atkinson cycle is patented by Toyota. Again, 4'th time. WRONG.

 

At any rate, when your stepping up to the table to be a new guy in the card game, you need to win a few hands up front to win respect.

Best case scenario, the Volt will not outperform the prius once the battery is drained..... period!

Granted, I've seen several depictions of good looks to the body, but what good is that if its as heavy as a boat and underpowered for that weight?

GM if anybody should be able to beg, steal, and barter an EPA rating close to what they claim....but they can't.... so whats that tell you?

Ford is at least doing what they do in style and class without false claims and letting the market decide and doing just fine.
So far, Chevy is full of hot air.

 

I just read through these 170 posts and it seems like something is being missed.

Henderson of GM is quoted as saying, “The Volt can travel up to 40 miles on a single battery charge, at which point a small gasoline engine kicks in and starts to recharge the battery.†Of course, it also has to power the electric motor – you don’t pull over and stop and wait for the battery to be recharged !

The whole story on the Volt’s MPG rests how far do you have to drive using the ICE-generator on average to recharged the battery, because once the battery is recharged you can switch back to electric mode and repeat the cycle until you need to stop to refill the gas tank.

If the recharge distance is 11 miles, GM is right – it’s 230 MPG. If It takes longer than 11 miles, GM is wrong. I think the EPA testing uses this same idea because they say the battery has to return to it original SOC to decide on the MPG.

I don’t see how you can recharge in 11 miles, a little over 0.2 gallons, do you?

 

If it were to recharge, it would be based on time, not distance. And if the car is moving, the faster it moves the slower the recharge, because the battery would be getting the leftover power not used for traction.

But fully recharging the battery from the ICE defeats the whole purpose of an EV. More likely it would shut off at some lower charge level, so the car has a mostly discharged battery when it reaches an electric outlet.

 

Dude, relax! I don't mind being proven wrong but that urgency to prove yourself right bothers me. I made one unclear statement and you proved me wrong four times. LOL, you are good.

Honda Civic hybrid and GM's two-mode hybrid use late intake closing for their gas engine. They did not use the term Atkinson cycle. I believe their compression ratio are around 10:1.

Prius and other full hybrids (including Ford as well) use Atkinson cycle and they have the ratio between 12:1 to 13:1.

Toyota did not specifically patent Atkinson cycle but they patented the controls in a very general way (using crankshaft angle). Very clever but sucks for the competition.

What I don't fully understand is how Civic hybrid and two-mode hybrids implemented late intake closing without violating Toyota's patent. Maybe you can help out here.

It will be interesting to see how the Volt's ICE works. Even if it can reach 37% thermal efficiency, it will not beat the Prius' 50 MPG as you stated due to the conversion loss. Most of the Volt's miles will NOT be in the CS mode so it may be down in the list to optimize. Taking into account of the very aggressive timeline, I would guess the ICE optimization would be push to the second generation of the Voltec.

 

Once you've used up the charge in the battery, the car switches to charge sustaining mode - just like the Prius. Except that the Volt is a series hybrid and the Prius is a parallel hybrid.

The Volt will never charge the battery any more than is necessary using the onboard generator. That would defeat the whole purpose of plugging in!

 

GM wants that 230 mpg rating to raise their fleet mpg average, so they can get away with less mileage on their other cars.

The mpg rating was designed for ICE cars, and really doesn't apply to electrics. Or shouldn't. The government is going to have to deal with the question of mpg and electrics. That's true for hybrids, as well. Mpg is meaningless for battery power. For example, you can't have a company claiming infinite mpg for a wholly electric car. Not if it affects the fleet average.

 

Yep ... if it looks like a rat, squeaks like a rat, smells like a rat you got a rat. Use for example your own made up battery recharge / discharge #'s in a formula. Take 60mph for example:

In just 11 miles/11 minutes, you're recharged and thus, you'd get 40miles/40 minutes of EV. Right.

GM is the KING of deception when it comes to their EPA shell game. Am I the only one who remembers GM's giant "flex fuel" scam?

http://autos.aol.com/article/flex-fuel-fallacy

In simple terms, you take a land barge that gets 18 miles per gallon on "GAS" ... mix the gas 50/50 with grain fuel, and you don't have to count the grain fuel towards Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) requirements ... and thus your GM land barge only use 1/2 gallon to go 18 miles ... or 36 miles per gallon (grain fuel has lower power ratings, so you actually get WORSE then 36mpg). So, in the past, THAT'S how GM got it's "higher than Toyota EPA #'s ... through FRAUD. Now, what in the last couple years at GM has changed, in their honesty philosophy?
Put another way ... how do YOU spell skumbags.

.

 

Live Green, Go Yellow

Most GM supports pretend none of that ever happened. It was a true act of automaker desperation that cannot be denied. They had nothing worthwhile to sell, so they mislead with a campaign which made them look like they delivered way more than they actually did. They also made flex-fuel expansion promises that have since been abandoned too.
.

 

Ah, the teapot is calling the kettle "black"

So, in the GM Fanboy world, the Toyota Prius = bad. It will never "pay" for itself. But the Chevy Silvorado Hybrid = good.



Gotcha

No, but don't mention that to the GM Fanboys. Between Guvmint Motors Corp being run by the guvmint, the EV-1's being rounded up and crushed, and the flex fuel shell game, it could be a bit too much to bear

 

I don't know the details on this Glider.. just haven't done enough homework yet as I lost my enthusiasm once I figured out it wasn't the glorious prospect the add made it out to be.

I don't know about this "electric mode"... I assumed you could simply drive the car if the battery had any juice and not if it didn't.
Since the car solely runs off the electric motor, you won't go anywhere unless its charged to some degree.

I agree, it would be foolish if they allowed it to charge the battery to full from the gas engine because its never as effecient to use electricity generated from your gas engine if you could have charged it from plugin instead "hence the point of plugin".

HOWEVER... if the car is totally dependent upon the battery charge as to whether it can run... it would be nice to have that option to charge while staying at your hotel, or restaurant from the gas engine to maximize your charge for when you leave again knowing you have no plugin access.
Then if your not fully charged, when you take off the gas engine could continue to run "if you chose" to help maintain the charge even if it means to a full charge "since you don't have plugin access"

Basically in a nutshell lets since I don't know what the real numbers are, lets say your driving along and your battery gets depleted and the gas engine has to kick on to charge it.....
I assume you could still drive as long as you didn't pull out more juice than was being supplied.... how fast could you go?.. I don't know.. but that was my point about this being so negative...

The 1.4 Liter gas engine charging "with losses" into the battery... it doesn't take too much math to figure out that the electric motor will never have more horsepower available than what is being put in right?

I doubt they have the gas engine directly wired to the drive train of the electric motor as there would be no buffer. Even if they did, you still can use more than your getting.

I'm assuming the battery would definitely be the buffer in between that link.....

Most things.. from computer drives, to most electrical components always need capacitors and batteries as buffers.

We can no longer operate with a mechanical engine mentality that says the engine will meet the demand of the load based on clutches and transmissions.

This is one of the beauties of the Toyota Prius.. they have done the best job I know of to marry mechanical technology with electrical technology all working together.

 

I was taking Henderson of GM at his word that they were using the ICE to charge the battery. Thanks to a host of people for pointing out that this is not an efficient way to do it.

As far as MPG for series electrics, the EPA is doing it a completely different way anyway - determining kwh/mile and converting this to gasoline used and then MPG of gas. I think the days of using this method are numbered.

Averaging in just one electric car with infinite MPG will give a fleet average of infinite MPG. However, using GPM instead of MPG would fix things up, since it is fine to average in a bunch of cars with zero gallons per mile when all you are talking about is gasoline consumption, not energy consumption, emissions, etc.

The whole idea of specifying MPG of gas for purely electric cars seems crazy. Yes, the EPA needs to have a separate, purely electrical, measure for EVs. What am I saying ??? We still use HORSEpower

 

The important thing is that it is only the AVERAGE electric motor power taken over a few minutes that needs to be less than the gas engine output.

It will only take 20-40 HP to propel the car at normal level freeway speeds the battery will be used to supply the additional power needed for short periods of acceleration or hill-climbing.

When the car is in charge sustaining mode it will operate almost identically to the Prius where we know about the battery running down in extended hill-climbing. Those are unusual conditions.

Depending on how much charge they keep in the battery when in charge sustaining mode the Volt will probably have less of an issue because of its much larger battery.

I think many people are underestimating how much work GM will have done in this area - I am sure they have performed simulations of all sorts of driving conditions, weather conditions, loading, driving styles etc to select the configuration where the majority of drivers will never even notice the performance difference between the electric only operation and charge sustaining mode.

I also expect that there will be some people who will be unhappy with whatever particular decisions they make.

kevin

 

So, has the biofuels industry taken a huge hit ever since then, or are the 1000 (compared to the other 99% that don't even know where a biofuels station is) or so people that own Flex vehicles and actually buy bioethanol and biodiesel still buying the biofuels?