GM wants a 230MPG rating from the EPA

Re: it's because of their track record

Sadly you're right. I won't even say you're preaching to the choir but I am with you, GM has made more mistakes than the Bush administration and anyone who isn't glad for the changes that have come as of late isn't really being honest about it. That said the Obama administration isn't a whole lot better nor is the path GM is taking right now because after all the disasters they've gone through they're still not reversing a failed catostrophe of a plan.

I hate the stereotypes that we as American have and possibly none more than the military, my line of work. I look out into the parking lots I frequent and it is seriously 8, maybe even 9 out of 10 vehicles are big trucks or SUV's and most of them never use the vehicle for what it was meant.... and truthfully the companies that made them never had any intention for them other than commuter vehicles. My dad to day is a mass of discouragement which is why I reach out on the internet to other people who are smart with their MPG and pollution.

That was part my point too. As hypermilers, hybrid enthusiasts or as people who care about the world we leave to the future generations we shouldn't hate on each other. Competition does keep it going of course.

I consider GM to kind of be "my" company like Ford and Chrysler simply by virtue of the their being American and while I hate a lot of what goes on in the U.S. I still hate to see American companies fail.

 

This may have been covered previously (with 15 pages I don't have time to read all of them this morning), but I remember reading some posts that a PC member "TheForce" achieved over 270 mpg with his plug in Prius. Considering that the Volt will eliminate the direct connection of a gas powered engine with a typical drivetrain, 230 almost seems low to me for city driving (with consistent charges). Regardless, for the sake of continuing a movement to increase fuel efficiency and reviving the US auto industry, let's hope that GM gets this right, if they "get it" it all.

 

If you were a woman and some guy who has a reputation as a lair and a history of promising the moon and never following through and was on the verge of bankruptcy but had a new flashy car... would you marry him?

This is what I recon this relationship like...... even if the volt "was" released, do you trust they could take care of you and supply the needed resources to keep you running and not go under themselves in the process?....things to think about before you get married!

What about the character of the company and knowledge concerning this cutting edge technology.
Im sorry to say, but American made cars do well to maintain each model from year to year by putting a new body over the same old car..... how will they do when the mold is changed and the whole car is different?

I too would love to see GM change and lead the world as they represent America.... but sadly, Many Americans are lazy and want allot for little work.... hence the high price-tag on the Volt.

I need to see a track record first..... they have no reputation yet for providing anything more than dreams and illusions.

 

Rybold, your points are valid, until your battery runs dry.... then you can go no faster or quicker than the electricity your gas engine can provide.... remember to look at the weakest link as your mainstay factor in performance.

If you never intend to drive more than 50 miles or so at a time, then you can buy based on your points.

 

Bluetwo, I think your misinterpreting our anger.
We all would "love" new technology to break the scene.. even if its not Toyota. Hydrogen, LiIon, electric... its all good and sitting there like puzzle pieces just waiting for someone to put them all together.

But the rebuttals you interpret as Hate is actually frustration that they throw out these "outlandish" claims that tend to "slam" the prius who is a litgitimate company that has earned their position.
Why arent they out here on the forums explaining and defending thier claims?... Shouldnt they just keep quiet and secretly work on their project until its released?

Here is one clue..... if someone "really" has a breaking project, they tend to keep the details secret until proven and ready to be released to keep the competition at a loss until the last minute, the ones with false claims boast and boast as soon as they can without merit.
Thats the difference between Toyota and some of the others.

How much can you get Toyota to tell us about their future cars?

How would you feel if a politician you knew who had an impeccable reputation "if there are any" and known and trusted in the community for such for many years was approached by another politician with promises to beat by far the accomplishments of his competition but had no track record or means to prove his claims, and couldnt even prove he was a citizen... would you vote him in?
If the answer was yes... I know who you voted for for president! :cheer2:
Don't make the same mistake twice!

Shouldn't character and trust be a key ingredient when purchasing new technology?

Even if you give their character the total benefit of a doubt, they still cannot seem to perform what they keep promising.... "is that just incompetence, or poor management or both?....
when it does finally come out.. how good will it really be and how good will they be able to troubleshoot and maintain it?

I think everyone has had it with false claims for a while... so there is little tolerance.

 

If you read it carefully, that patent is for an engine with different intake timing and solutions to any issues associated with it. The abstract of the patent basically describes Atkinson cycle. This patent protects other manufacturers from coming up with an engine with very high compression ratio (13:1 ratio) running on 87 Octane gas which enables higher thermal efficiency.

A combustion control system for a spark-ignition internal combustion engine includes a variable piston stroke characteristic mechanism changing a compression ratio of the engine, sensors detecting engine operating conditions, i.e., engine speed and engine load, and at least one of a variable lift and working-angle control mechanism simultaneously continuously changing an intake-valve lift and an intake-valve working angle and a variable phase control mechanism changing an angular phase at a central angle corresponding to a maximum valve lift point of the intake valve. Also provided is a control unit that controls the variable piston stroke characteristic mechanism, and at least one of the variable lift and working-angle control mechanism and the variable phase control mechanism, depending on the engine operating conditions.​

 

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_American_streetcar_scandal"]Great American streetcar scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

the entire movie/documentary done by PBS (I think) is on line (google movie format) and it's well worth the view. The true diehard GM fan will say, "oh that was years ago ... things are different now". right



Edit:
Here's the movie ~ 56 minutes well worth your time. Make you want to cry.
[ame="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2486235784907931000"]Taken for a Ride[/ame]


.

 

I want to believe that too, but recently as I've seen the crazy things that has happened with bail out monies given without restraint and watching crooks we trusted as role models to lead us in our economic world, award themselves with outlandish bonuses, lavish parties and rewards for their failing companies, it becomes more and more obvious that rats on a sinking ship don't worry about fixing and maintaining the ship but rather to only find a life raft to save themselves.

Only the strongest, best managed companies are not sticking out their hand for a handout...... humm... I wonder who that is?

 

Re: it's because of their track record

Yeah, because Toyota has done so much to improve the fuel efficiency of its 4Runner, Sequoia, LX570, GX470, FJ Cruiser, Tacoma, Tundra, and Land Cruiser.

Stupid GM for increasing their truck and SUV fuel efficiency by 50% and having standard trucks and SUV with better MPGs than those made by Toyota.

 

Anyone else think the 230 graphic is flawed? I mean I know what they are pushing. 230 MPG's and Plug in BUT when I glance at the graphic, not knowing what it's related to, the way my mind takes it in, is 23-Smiling Plug in.

I think if you are getting 230 mpg, just worry about pushing 230 mpg. 2-3-0 would be more affective IMO.

I'm probably over obsessing. What is GM going to do? Toyota has the smiling, singing daisies market cornered.

 

Re: it's because of their track record

Interesting how the GM fanboys defend, with almost religious fervor, the hybrid system of pickups and luxury SUV's that hardly anybody can afford

But when the GenII first became popular, the same GM fanboys knocked it down every chance they could get. Of course, GM hybrids are ok, Toyota or Honda hybrids are NOT ok

As far as fuel efficiency of pickups, a neighbor had a 2003 Chevy Silvorado, several months ago he got a 2009 when the sweet deals were on, with GM being Tango Uniform

He reports his average fuel economy (He carefully tracks fuel as the truck is used for business) is exactly the same as the 2003. His co-workers, running pickups from Dodge, Ford, Toyota, etc, also are within 1-2 mpg of him.

The Dodge Hemi usually gets the worst fuel economy in that fleet. But the rest are within 1-2 mpg. But to actually get back on topic, of the mythical Volt and the many promises that have been made about it

GM has a history of breaking promises and not meeting expectations. GM could have OWNED the plug-in market, but for some odd reason rounded up all the EV-1's and crushed them

Then claimed they did NOT round them up and crush them

Of course, space aliens were involved. Occam's Razor, that's the only explanation left

 

I am not sure that is a fair statement. I have read ever post ... because I am interested. GM brought this upon themselves with the "230 mpg" claim. Virtually every post deals in one way or another with that claim. Maybe it is about Lutz or Litz (whatever his name). He is a politician ... not a car man.

One point I have wondered about is .... I understand the ICE will operate at, or near, a constant rpm. Why not, all it is doing is generating electricity, so run it at the specific rpm that is most economical. So you wait at a stop light, and the ICE is sitting there generating at .... what 1500 rpm's.

 

I have no problem with a motor running at fixed speed. One can design such a motor for maximum efficiency and lowest emissions, if the RPM range is kept fairly tight, say 1500-2500

Military hybrids, such as the Oshkosh HEMTT A3 with ProPulse, are designed to run a diesel engine at a fairly constant RPM, usually 1500-1800 RPM. This is a cleaver system to improve logistics as well, since the HEMTT can function as a critical grade power source while parked, eliminating a dedicated genset

 

Re: it's because of their track record

It's a continual cycle of stubbornness and lazyness. They call this generation the generation of "entitlement." They think they are owed everything just for being born. It is not what this country was founded upon. Let me say that again: It is not what this country was founded upon. George Washington worked his nice person off and put his own life on the line in the Revolutionary War and fought for his freedom. It didn't stop there. He kept persisting until the day he died. Same goes for our other Founding Fathers, such as Thomas Jefferson. Did Lincoln just sit there and accept the succession of the Confederates? Hell no! He jumped on his horse, rode down there, and kicked their asses! And then when it was over, he wrote one of the greatest speeches in America's history; the Gettysburg Address, on the battlefield. But he didn't stop there.....
GM is a cycle of stubbornness and lazyness. No wonder they ended up bankrupt. Meanwhile, Toyota is persisting ahead even as they are losing money in the current economy. It's not holding them back. They are persisting and fighting forward!!!

GM Bankruptcy = remember those video games when you were a kid and you "died" but since you had "three lives," you kept playing? In the George Washington scenario, bankrupt=dead. This did not happen to our Founding Fathers. They understood that they only had one life and they did things right. Too bad Bob Lutz sits around and plays video games all day with GM's future. Bankrupt=FAIL!

 

It's horrible the work environment here... Groups fighting other groups to save their jobs, everyone trying to latch on to productive, useful groups (such as my simulator group, although the true value of it I question as well) and destroy their competition to avoid the layoff ax.

There is no way in hell this company has the leadership and cooperation necessary to revolutionize the market and create a profitable plug-in hybrid anytime soon. Will they be able to produce a volt that causes them to burn money? Probably. But profitable or actually useful to average consumers, doubtful.

Toyota, Nissan, Honda, and even Ford, have the ability to create a profitable one.

 

Just keep buying Priuses. Eventually, GM will get the message. If they don't, then natural selection will take it's course. You would think GM would see what Ford has done with the Focus and Fusion Hybrid and follow Ford's path to survival. But nope, GM is still just sitting there being lazy and stubborn. If GM doesn't get up and do something, then nature will take it's course.

 

Incorrect. The patent is not for "an engine with different intake timing and solutions to any issues associated with it"

The patent is for a (NOT THE) solution to the problems associated with using 87 octane in such an engine. The subtle difference is very important.

Other approaches need to be patented to prevent GM from using them. If the patent described the Atkinson cycle it would be Mr Atkinson's patent from the 1800's. GM can use the word Atkinson cycle anytime it wants.

The Atkinson Engine.

Again for the third time, the Volt genset will not need Toyota's approach to prevent knock in an engine with a fixed set of speeds (even possibly variable speeds) because the fixed/controllable load on that engine is the volts generator ONLY.

Read the "summary of the invention" on the link below, its quite detailed and backs me up.

Combustion control system for spark-ignition internal combustion engine with variable piston strike characteristic mechanism and variable valve operating mechanism - US Patent 6769404 Description

 

They are quoting the price after tax credit, that is the final price for the buyer.
Just another marketing ploy to make the Volt appears to be cheaper.

 

Thanks for such an inclusive answer and for being polite.... for the most part. I voted for McCain by the way, and I am still against most of what the Obama administration is trying to do but at the same time I've seen a bigger push for alternative energy sources and I like that a lot. So I didn't make that particular mistake.

There really isn't anything else to compare the Volt to right now though is there? I could say I'm a little T'd at Honda for teasing the Accord Crosstour for so long but truthfully I don't see what they hype is about. I mean it'll probably be a damn Accord wagon or something....

I think I understand the frustration toward Chevy and GM as a whole right now. I just don't see the point in trying slam them for their projected MPG when we all know it's still a long ways out (seeing what it'll really be). Shouldn't Toyota have the plug-in hybrid by the time Volt comes out? So we'll see what happens when it happens.

Here's something some people might not have thought of though.... What will the price be for a plug-in hybrid when its time comes? Will it be concievably superiour to the previous generations of Prius and if so, by how much? Could it affect Prius sales or might it be in a whole other price range like say, the Volt?.... I've heard a lot of criticism toward the Volts price point too yet just today I was looking at what a kit costs to make todays hybrids plug-in capable and they weren't cheap. Seems a little familiar now....

 

Sorry if I sounded harsh bluetwo...It was nothing personal against you and I appreciate your posts.
We all would like GM to make it.
I still remember heated discussions in Freds place about GM.. its not like they haven't been warned the whole way along!...

But when its corrupt at the top, there's no one to fire them!

The whole point is they keep acting as if its right around the corner crying wolf.. thats the irritating part that gives them an increased image of being deceptive and up to no good and untrustworthy.
No one blames them for working on a product... but lets kill the hype and attention to be a "prius killer"... was a joke!

They would fare well at this point to say nothing until its done and then release it... but they take advantage of hype...
Its like a flashy toy or sales gimmick.. if they can just get you in with the promise of "later", they know you may buy right now!

That question was brought up in a discussion in Detroit with their chief engineer, the reply was that as technology gets better, parts also get cheaper and its a wash.

So the 2010 prius is quite different than before as far as better newer evolutions of existing technology, but the price of batteries etc have dropped too... so the price of the whole car only modestly rises.

Remember the market will only tolerate so much too... if price was no object, I'm sure the plug-ins would be out now, but price and availability of batteries is the big political holdup.... along with solar panel access.

I personally think Toyota should make their own batteries since they now have such a vested interest in them.... its never wise to be totally dependent upon another before you can manufacturer your product.

If 5 different elite companies collaborate efforts to create a new innovative product and one holds out for more money, it cripples the rest.