GM wants a 230MPG rating from the EPA

Re: Chevy Volt - 230MPG EPA City?

I'm wondering if this Volt will be like the Honda Insight I. No dealer in the area had them, and when they did get one, it was only one and that didn't last long on the lot more than a day or two.

 

Chevy's claim to 230MPG was for city driving without having the engine running. In various articles, they have stated that it will take about 25KWH of energy to travel 100 miles. And they have also stated an EV range of 40 miles per charge. So the power consumed per charge is:

25KWH/ (100miles/40miles) =10KWH

Two things can be determined from this data:
1)
Since only 8KWH of the battery capacity is usable (source: Wikipedia), then the charging efficiency is only 80% (8KWH/10KWH). That's pretty low by today's standards for switching regulators.
2)
Traveling 100 electric only miles with 25KWH of energy equates to 134MPG. See the calculations below:

25 KWH =85307.5 BTUs
1 gallon of gasoline contains 114000 BTUs
So 25KWH =0.75 gallons
100 mile EV range / 0.75 gallons =134MPG

Not sure what type of creative calculations Chevy used to some up with 230MPG. Any assitance by the engine to use a larger total mileage range would only reduce the MPG further unless somehow the engine is getting much higher than 134MPG by itself.

 

Has anybody seen the proposed EPA formula that Chevy has referred to?

 

Re: Chevy Volt - 230MPG EPA City?

In my opinion, you have to not only take the fuel consumed but you also have to look at the power costs for recharging. There is going to be a lot more to come on this subject I am sure since, the power companies are now talking about having to upgrade their infrastructure to accomodate the households that will be recharging their vehicles at home. Now today's prices are not cheap per KWH, but you can only imagine the greed from the Power utilties that will soon rear their heads, and then you have to look at total cost of ownership. I for one, being a truly lover of the Prius would be far more comfortable with a Prius PLUG IN Hybrid which I know will come to market in the next couple years. After all, Toyota has been doing the Prius for many years and conversion to more Electric makes it a logical transition for them. I would be at the front of the line for that model when it comes to market and feel good about it.

 

Re: Chevy Volt - 230MPG EPA City?

As long as your giving it an "E" for effort and have a product to show, I'm sure the Gov will fund some bucks your way too!

Its projects like the volt project that ruin it for legitimate efforts to go green and develop new technology helped along by the tax dollars.
The technology they are attempting is far too simple to not have cranked out a real car yet that will work and folks can buy.

I suspect they are milking it as far as they can like everyone else that gets funds from the sugar Daddy Government.

 

Re: Chevy Volt - 230MPG EPA City?

Me too!.... I can trust that when Toyota releases it, it will actually work!
Also, I'm sure they will leave present technology intact so you won't get stranded with a gutless car once your main battery gets depleted.

 

Wouldn't it be cheaper just to build EV1s again?

And how about some government money for Aptera? That's already a far better car than the Volt will ever be.

 

Re: Chevy Volt - 230MPG EPA City?

I don't know for a fact what they are or not getting from the Gov.. I'm just speculating.. but building EV1's would be obvious they are not progressing.
Its time some of these car manufacturer do it or forget it!

I know batteries are in short supply.. but that seems lame too..... When the supply is so big now for batteries, you would think someone would be willing to nail down a massive contract and make batteries in plenty.

There are so many different types that are far better than NiMh too.. even better than Lithium.... but I'm sure there are political games of price and power at stake.

But batteries alone would not fix Volts problem.... you still drop back to a 1.0 liter engine once they are drained... thats the major bummer.

They are majoring on the electric and minoring on the engine when Toyota prius has done the other way around to give you the security of not being stranded with a gutless car tha totally changes character once the battery goes down and becomes unpleasant and not practicle to drive.

I am still waiting for the best of both worlds.... a prius with a nice size LiIon "or better" battery!

 

A nice marketing ploy intended to divert attention away from what it really costs to own and drive the Volt.

If you plug in (pun intended!) the costs of the electricity at 10 c/kWh and assume around 500w/mile, you end up with a cost per mile of around 5c/mile. If you assume the battery is good for 1000 x 40 mile charge/discharge cycles and costs $10,000 to replace, that represents a cost of 25c/mile. Even if the batteries get to be a fifth of the price, the battery cost is going to at least equal that of the electricity.

So I estimate a minimum of 10c/mile electric fuel charge for the Volt, compared to our present Prius fuel cost of 6c/mile (50 mpg at $3.00 a gallon).

Mike

 

Re: Chevy Volt - 230MPG EPA City?

The Volt is capable of running with a dead gas engine (for its 40 mile range). The Volt is dead with a dead electric motor. The Prius is also dead with a dead electric motor, and go less then 3 miles with no gas engine at low speeds.

Well you got me. GM says their own EV1 was a failure. We of course know the car itself was not a failure just GM's handling of it.

And how is that bad? Even if it was a little slower? As long as its not 20% slower then it should be fine.

Test after test shows the engine sizing is quite correct. At highway legal speeds they are charging the battery and meeting the demand of the motor. Unless you are going 90mph for extended periods there should be no problem. Remember the generator is 53kW (75hp). and highway cruising at 65mph does not use nearly this much.

 

Re: Chevy Volt - 230MPG EPA City?

Not sure what you mean about the prius being dead if the battery is dead.. the prius only uses the battery for regen storage purposes is never intended to propel the car alone for actual road miles. Its other function is to improve gas mileage is it contributes to what the Gas engine is doing..
I'm using the term "dead" as being drained so low the computer will not use it for fuel or power. Every one agrees if you run it to bone dry dead the computer will shut the car down... but not because it "won't" run, but rather to make sure you fix the problem before continuing as normally the battery on a prius will never be bone dead as the engine keeps it charged to a certain amount as I'm sure the volt must.

Nevertheless, we are talking terms of being drained to the point of no use for further power or output to the drive train.

The bottom line in either case is that when the battery is drained, you cannot get power from "nowhere" and you can only perform as well as the gas engine can perform. On the volt, its mere job is to make electricity.. so there is allot lost in the conversion too.

I wouldn't be slamming the volt for their simple makeup of an electric motor accompanied with a generator "or gas engine" to charge the battery to keep that electric motor going so the car will propel down the road.

The concept is very simple.. I like simple, but not for 40K!

I may be a consideration if the engine was on the caliber of the prius to keep you going comfortably at full freeway speeds without strain to the system.

When you use a chain, you have to consider the weakest link and then determine if it will still do the job. The weakest link on the volt is the small 1.0 liter engine that will provide the sole power by making electricity once the battery is drained. The amount of usable horsepower will be quite reduced once all the losses are factored in.

I'm almost positive "if" the gas mileage they are quoting for use after the battery is drained is anywhere near accurate, it will be at "very" modest speeds.

The Volt will make a great commuter car.. but I can get one of those for a few thousand brand new!
I use the term "communter" as being something useful for short periods to get you from point A to B without concern for very frequent use and or long trips where comfort, speed and amenities are appreciated.

I would love for the Volt to be a success.. but let Chevy pay the price and do it right and put a good price on it. But don't ask a caviar price for spaghetti!

 

Re: Chevy Volt - 230MPG EPA City?

In case anyone is not aware ... here's how long GM has been getting a free ride about how they're just around the corner from becoming green ... and almost ready to put hybrids into mass production. I give you the 1960's Opel:



Old is made new . . . again. so, build it already! ... and quit making all the hype! GM's new slogan ought to be, "40 years ... and still not green"



.

 

Re: Chevy Volt - 230MPG EPA City?

First, I'm very happy to hear that GM plans to finally get this thing on the road next year. The country, and the world need to move in this direction.
Second, I hope the new battery technology (Toyota, risk averse as they are, is testing it prior to releasing the plug in hybrid they promised for 2010) proves as reliable as the battery used in today's Prius. Plug-In hybrids are a cut above the ones we drive today, yo be sure.
Third, I hope they get the price down on the Plug-In hybrid from GM. I'm getting too old to think about buying a new car, but if I did, I would love to buy a Plug-In hybrid, made in the USA.
Fourth, I hope GM has, or will overcome their reliability issues. My bitter experience with GM, Ford and Chrysler "Lemons" over the past 40 years forced me to move to Toyota for reliability. But I would love to buy a car made by Union workers in the USA, if it is reliable.
Fifth, I hope GM will put a really good warranty on this car, so that the customer will not have to assume the financial risk, in case reliability issues once more rear their ugly heads with this radical new technology.
If the 2011 Prius is a Plug-In hybrid with the new battery, GM will have serious competition to overcome with the Volt. If not, I have to think Toyota has found the new battery not reliable enough to risk its reputation on, and in that case the Volt may prove to be another flop for GM--since it relies on the very same new tech battery.

 

Re: Chevy Volt - 230MPG EPA City?

The GM rep said on the radio that the actual MPG might be up to 150mpg for average driving.

If that's so, and the car costs $40,000 ...

compared to a $25,000 car that gets 30mpg, with gas at $3.00 a gallon ...

it would take you over 200,000 miles before your costs broke even.

So you will be paying a huge premium for the privilege of owning a Volt.

 

Re: Chevy Volt - 230MPG EPA City?

City and Highway consumption could be exactly the same, yet with the Volt's EV/ICE mix and the details of the EPA MPG definitions, the city and highway numbers can still be hugely different.

The problem is with the EPA definitions, which are wholly inappropriate for this type of vehicle.

 

Okay lets clear somethings up about the Volt.

The projected price is $40k. Keep in mind, the US Govt qualifys the Volts for a $7500 tax break, so the final price ends up at $32500, about the same as any other nice midsize/large sedan. Don't complain, the Japanese Govt has been subsidizing Toyota for years, as well as individual US States giving them further tax break and incentives. The Prius also qualifies for a lessor tax break from the US Govt.

How the ICE and the electric motors interact: When the battery charge is depleted, the ICE (Internal combustion engine) kicks in as a generator and provides electricity directly to the electric motors. This is the only way that makes sense. If the ICE charged the batteries, and then the batteries powered the electric motor, there would be a loss in energy with the additional step in between. The ICE sending power directly to the electric motors is the absolute most efficiant way to go about things, that is the ultimate objective, right?

How much it costs to charge- It takes 8 kwh to fully charge the Volt's battery from empty. At the US average of 10 cents a kwh, it would cost $.80 to fully charge the volt. At off peak hours where the rate drops to 5 cents per kwh, it would take $.40 to charge.

How long it takes to charge- 6.5 hours at 110 volts, 3 at 220 volts.

What is the deal with 230mpg? Two things, first, just like any other government agency, the EPA is retarded. Secondly, GM is taking advantage of this and making outrageous marketing claims. But speaking of outragous marketing claims, we all saw those commercials for the new Tundra when it came out, right?

The EPA took statistics of the distance and driving style of an average American for one day. The EPA ratings are a representation of what economy a consumer can expect, not a guarantee. In their backwards thinking, the EPA figured out a formula specifically for EV's to calculate their mileage assuming a full charge and factoring in average driving. By this method the Volt gets 230mpg city.

I think we could all agree, we really only want two measurements from the EPA- estimated range of electric only driving, and mpg thereafter. But this is the US govt we are talking about, when have they ever made sense?

Using current EPA driving cycles the Volt has been confirmed to have a 40 mile range for city driving. It has not been confirmed, but rumored that it will recieve around 38-39 miles for the EPA's highway cycle.

With the ICE running, the Volt will get around 50mpg. NOT 23 or 24. NOT 40. 50mpg. Believe it or not, Chevy is already beating Toyota in fuel economy in almost every segment. Times are changing.

Currently, the Volt will have a 6 or 7 gallon fuel tank, and have a range of ~300 miles once the ICE is running.

Here is a chart comparing trip distance to fuel economy, assuming a full charge.

TRIP DISTANCE / MPG AVG. OVER TRIP
40 / infinite
50 / 250.00
60 / 150.00
70 / 116.67
100 / 83.33
110 / 78.57
120 / 75.00
130 / 72.22
140 / 70.00
150 / 68.18
160 / 66.67
170 / 65.38
180 / 64.29
190 / 63.33
200 / 62.50
210 / 61.76
220 / 61.11
230 / 60.53
240 / 60.00
250 / 59.52
260 / 59.09
270 / 58.70
280 / 58.33
290 / 58.00
300 / 57.69

Now you might argue that if you completely deplete the battery, the Volt gets no better mileage than a Prius. Well, guess what? That defeats the point of a plug in hybrid. You are supposed to charge it as much as possible. The ICE is a range extender intended for added utility.

Last argument I could see against the Volt would be its cost over a Prius. Well, I have an old beat to hell Tercel I bought for $500 that averages 35mpg, thats a helluva lot more economical than a Prius or a Volt; but thats not the point.

If you don't like GM or the Volt, fine. But at least be informed of the actual facts if you are going to talk trash about either.

Oh yea, one last thing, Chevy is aiming for getting 100,000 miles out of the battery pack. NOT 40,000. Where do yall get these numbers from? If you drive less than 40 miles per day, and charge at $.10 per kwh, it will cost you $.02 per mile to operate the Volt. If you charge at $.50 per kwh, it will only cost $.01 per mile.

 

Re: Chevy Volt - 230MPG EPA City?

Regardless, the Plug-In Hybrid concept is the next step, as Toyota engineers have long said. The HSD, as a series/parallel hybrid system, is superior in some ways to the series hybrid which is the Volt's technology.
For either, it's the battery that is the key?

 

Re: Chevy Volt - 230MPG EPA City?

EV mode is disabled by default in my Prius, and I thought it had to do with the EPA not being able to come up with a formula for MPGs on a mixed-fuel vehicle when one fuel wasn't measured in gallons so they nixed the option to 'burn' electricity.

Is the EPA now going to have to fish around for a valid formula for the Volt? Or did they make up a new formula for the 2010 Prius with EV available and *it* is giving the inflated 230MPG figure?...

 

somedude,

I thought $40k price tag is with the $7,500 tax credit. Otherwise

What is your source on Japanese government subsidizing Prius development. US government has spent billions with PNGV and now with the bailout.

What is your source for Volt getting 50 MPG running on ICE alone? EPA has not even tested the Volt yet. So it should be "your guess is as good as mine" thing.