Did you consider a Jetta TDI before going Prius?

Hi Masters...,

This comment:

" Overall clean car? The jetta probably will win since the manufacturing and disposal of the Prius kinda kills that. There is nothing really dirty about the Jetta.
"
Will probably bring out the ire of the Prius Chat people. Many of us see the source of this opinion as part of a guerilla anti-hybrid marketing campaign.

If your not familiar with Diesel engine manufacture, to be strong enough (20:1 compression ratio), and go 100's of thousands of miles, the metal that Diesel engines are made out of is heavier, harder and stronger. And so, it takes some extra time on a machining center to cut that for a gasoline engine. Turbochargers are exposed to high temperatures continuously, as such the metal in the rotors needs to be a high temp alloy - ie nickel bearing. And the thin rotor vanes cut into these high temperature, hard alloys take allot of machining time too.

Diesel cars do not have electric brakes. So, all that braking emits brake and iron dust allot more than a Prius.

A standard car needs a starter battery in 4 or 5 years (3 if your in Phoenix). A Prius NiMH battery will last the life of the car, and the very small computer boot-up battery will last 4 years. So, at 12000 miles a year and 150000 mi the standard car (including the jetta) will go through 3 of those 60 pound batteries, versus 3 of the 15 pound computer boot-up batteries in the Prius. That is an allot more lead and sulphuric acid to dispose of for the Jetta. While the Prius is till starting the car on its original NiMH battery. Indeed, at the life many Generation II Prius bateries go to (> 250 K miles), there would be more lead and sulphuric acid disposal by weight required of standard car starter batteries, than the weight of nickel and caustic electrolyte in that Prius battery.

The cost of recycling the Prius NiMH traction battery is in the Prius already. Toyota has figured that all out, and has built facilities to do the work and pays a $200 bounty for the batteries.

Of course copper and magnet alloy in the Prius motors are valuable comodities, and wont be left to wallow at the bottom of a land-fill.

 

I think the issues with diesel fuel will not go away

 

What issues with diesel fuel are you referring to.. It is nice diesel is $ .20+ cheaper than regular.

And what electrical issues does the 09 Jetta have?



----
04 Prius 84000 miles
09 Jetta TDI 1500 miles

 

Like straight gas vehicles, it also operates closer to the design limits. In contrast, every Prius engine is running at about 70% of the design limit of the light weight block and moving parts. Just like the conservative battery limits, this engine de-rating gives unusual life to the Prius. I only know of two Prius engine failures and both were from diesel fuel being put in the tank.

Bob Wilson

 

I actually did consider a TDI. But I would have to debunk some of your claims

1. The base prius (II) is the same price as the Jetta TDI (base). The Jetta doesn't have equivalent options when it comes to a solar power sunroof (ventilation that also comes with remote ac) nor does it come with stereo bluetooth option, radar cruise control, park assist, back up camera. For the price of the sunroof you get far more than just the sunroof.

2. The Prius has a far larger interior, much larger back seat.

3. i like the way you use the word "now", because the second it gets colder, diesel will be even higher than it was before (states are starting to require the use of biodiesel for home heating oil. Governor in MA just passed it.)at one point diesel was about $1 more than premium.
4. If you want to talk about maintenance, many mechanics I know charge a huge premium for work on a diesel engines. I still want to see a VW Diesel fire up on a cold morning without waking the neighbors.

I drove the TDI and got about 39 mpg which is great, it did handle very well. I haven't driven a new prius.

 

They are both excellent cars.

If you lean more towards technology and gadgets, and consider a car a thing to get you from A to B, get the Prius.
If you enjoy the act of driving and appreciate handling and quality of materials, get the VW.
The Prius will probably be more reliable over time, but the VW has free maintenance for 3 years.
The Prius will get better mileage in town, the VW will be close on the highway, and probably better in the mountains.

Around here, it's very easy to run the VW on biodiesel, which is $0.50 cheaper per gallon year round, takes you completely off the dependency for foreign oil, has no noxious emissions and is 100% post-consumer recycled waste. Only problem is people behind you start craving french fries for some reason.

 

I own a 2003 TDI and a 2005 Prius. The TDI has by far been the best car we have every owned. It currently has 184K miles and hasn't had anything done besides routine maintenance. Fuel economy is:

• 40-45 mpg around town
• 48-50 mpg on the highway @ 79 mph
• 55 mpg on rural highways @ 60 mph

The 2009 TDI's are more powerful than my 2003 but get lower fuel economy. However, fuel economy is much better than the EPA sticker rating. Fuel Economy put the user's range at 34 to 49 mpg with an average of 40 mpg.

The timing belt on a TDI needs to be replace every 100K miles, not 60K. (The 60K mile requirement ended in 2002 but many dealers still try to get people to change it at 60K) That service cost $850 at the dealer including replacing the water pump. That is the same price a friend paid to replace his the timing belt on his Honda. The oil changes cost more than for a gasoline car but the interval is only every 10K miles.

VW had some very real quality issues on the 4th generation vehicles. Since then VW's quality has improved dramatically and Consumer Reports now recommends the VW Jetta and Golf.

I would definitely consider the 2009 Jetta TDI if is was looking to buy another large car today. I would recommend that you drive both and buy the one you like best.


EDIT: Pat, this is a Volkswagen Jetta. It is a sedan version of the Golf

 

I bought a new TDI in 2000. I fell in love with the power of the diesel. I did not like the cost of the timing belt changes. My wife called the "check engine light" the $500 light. The mileage savings all went for repairs pulse more. The quality just isn't there. I sold the car this year. We are getting a new Prius.

 

OK, this was also posted somewhere else but it seems more adequate to be posted here in this discussion. If you are looking for a better alternative to the new Prius, here are the facts collected so far after extensive research, not just based on individual negative experiences of either Prius or Jetta TDI owners:

1-Cost: A 09 Jetta TDI will cost at least 2k less than a similarly equipped Prius (III), because most VW dealers right now are offering 1.5K bellow MSRP and you get 1.3K of tax credit with the TDI until the end of 2010 (no tax credit for Prius anymore!)
2-Fuel efficiency: They show similar MPG in the highway but the Prius is a clear winner in stop and go traffic. That’s what the Prius is all about, fuel efficiency.
3-Performance: This is where the Jetta TDI crushes the competition. The high torque and power of the TDI diesel technology gives the Jetta a very pleasant, powerful, and much funnier drive experience. I have test drove both, there is no comparison here no matter what 2010 Prius owners say. The Prius performs like a scooter when compared to the Jetta TDI. No kidding.
4-Maitainance: True cost of ownership is similar in both over a period of 5 years according to Edmunds but they do not take into consideration battery replacement in the Prius due at 250K at a cost of 2.5K. The Jetta TDI is a much better choice in a long run because new TDI diesel engines last for much longer time than gas engines. By the time you need to replace the battery in the Prius is also about time to replace the whole car because the small gas engine is probably in the end of its lifetime. No wonder 60% of European cars are running in TDI diesels, not hybrid gasoline-electric.
5-Interior: The Prius is a winner here, it has a more refined interior with a high-tech feeling and more room than the Jetta TDI sedan, believe or not. The Jetta TDI wagon has a lot more room than the Prius though if you like that one.
6-Exterior: The Jetta TDI does not have a particularly appealing look but certainly better than the Prius. This is fun, because every single Prius owner will say they like the exterior look of the car but they "forget" what their reaction was when they first saw a Prius, especially the back part... what ugly car is that? Remember now?
7-Green: Here is what most people don't know. The Jetta TDI is a lot "greener" than the Prius since it has lower carbon emissions and the extraction of the minerals that make up the Prius battery is far from being a green initiative as the process greatly degrades the environment. The "green" tag of the Prius is just good marketing, something that VW of America should learn with Toyota.
8-Fuel prices: Diesel is cheaper now and several specialists is forecasting this trend will continue for a long time. Diesel prices tend to be more expensive in the winter and cheaper in the summer (the opposite of gasoline), but it's in the summer when you drive the most, so one is likely to safe a lot more in the pump with diesel compared to gasoline in a long run.
9-Reliability: There is a misconception that VWs cars are not reliable. Unfortunately, this was built in the US culture in the past and it stills sticks around even though the latest VW models are a lot more reliable than most people think. It’s a cultural problem! Go ask any European or South American person what brand is more reliable, Toyota or VW, and they will say VW with no hesitation. Typical new VWs have a specific characteristic of being fuel efficient but yet powerful with simple interior but yet very functional and solid. They are safer too. The Jetta TDI has higher safety scores than the Prius. The real problem with VW of America, unfortunately, is the bad reputation of the maintenance service in the dealer. Many VW dealers are indeed not well qualified, but there are many VW gurus spread all over the country that understands well how the beautifully engineered VWs work and will take good care of it keeping it running smooth at low cost.

Bottom line: Unless most of your drive is stop and go traffic, it doesn't make much sense to pick a Prius over the TDI Jetta. The Jetta is a clear winner overall. Also, if you’re a car enthusiast, you will find driving the Jetta a lot more fun than the Prius. Just drive both and you will see what I’m talking about.

 

There are so many half truths that I think should be corrected:
1. running on vegetable oil is not the same as bio diesel, (B5) it will not rid you of your foreign oil dependance. In fact anything over B5 will VOID your warranty (read your tdi manual). There is ethanol in gasoline does that make it biogasoline? get a grip.

2. The price of diesel is heavily subsidized in the EU, The assumption is that the price of diesel will remain cheaper than gas, in the winter months it will be more expensive.
3. the toyota prius is 85 percent recyclable. Guess what part of the prius is almost 93% recyclable..... the battery.
4. I'm glad most europeans and south americans have had good luck with their VW, too bad not that many people in the USA did. Tell that to someone (me and many others) that spent a great deal of money on a 02 jetta TDI that thank god I got rid of. I didnt forget the days of having to be to work at 4am in january praying that the jetta would start. (not everyone has access to a garage)
At the end of the day, the car you pick should best suit you, but don't go spilling hlaf truths to support your claims.
5. if price was such a sticking point I would get a Honda insight.

6.why doesnt anyone every mention the size of the jetta? its the size of a corolla and 10k more expensive. want sporty try a sentra for 5k less or a lancer. There are so many other options that went laid out side by side make the jetta seem redundant.

The Prius is a midsized car that gets the best gas mileage. If you want bigger you step up to a Camry Hybrid, Ford Fusion Hybrid. The Jetta is a sporty small car starts at 22k, sentra and corolla start at about 15k. so in five years do you think you are going to burn through that much gas to even break even? Then not every gas station sell diesel, I know when I lived in NYC there wasn't a gas station for miles that sold diesel.

 

What's your source on that info? I didn't know 23 lbs Nickel in the HV battery pack can cause that much environmental damage. Dude, you fell for the myth. Find out the truth.

Toyota has done a complete life cycle emission of Prius vs. a comparable non-hybrid. The Prius effect starts on your 3rd oil change. I'd like to see similar study from VW.

Note: Consider the braking distance as well.

 

The 2010 Prius shows less rear seat legroom than the 2009 only because the 2010 has much more travel in the front seat. It can go back 2 inches farther than the Gen2 models. The 2010 Prius still has considerably more back space room than the Jetta.

 

Wow, where do I start on this one?

I and many here DO consider ourselves car enthusiasts... but the question is what century do we place ourselves in? I certainly have no interest being a car enthusiast with a dated 20th century mindset. Listening to a noisy ICE, accelerating to the next red light and senselessly burning rubber is neither responsible or fun... nor is it something to be proud of especially in the times we live in.

From a personal standpoint, I value the lowest CO2 and smog emissions along with the low noise levels that so far only hybrid ownership can provide. With that in mind, any of the existing VW TDI's have a real potential to eclipse all other traditional car tech but not enough to eclipse all of the current hybrid offerings.
You name it : Even in City or Highway mileage claims, VW still has nothing to offer that will place its TDI's above the existing hybrids.

Finally, our TDI friends need to get a grip on reality before perpetuating the same old, infinitely refuted and tired alegations against hybrids (battery, Nickel mining, etc). It makes them look ill-informed when in fact I am sure, they are not.

Maybe these charts will help our TDI friends a bit.


Look, we definietly need more TDI's on our roads. To me, a clean TDI is an excellent alternative to the other 95% of the cars on our roads.
But make no mistake, to somehow define a TDI as competition to the Prius is to purposely ignore the real differences between the two cars and dismiss either on the basis of our own ignorance.
VW marketing clearly do not have many engineering graduates in their ranks because if they had, I am quite sure such comparisions would certainly shame some of them.


Cheers;

MSantos

 

Your post most likely is a better fit here than in the thread you started called HWY MPG for the 2010 Prius. PLEASE HELP! which was, essentially, a request for comparative discussion involving the Jetta TDI and the 2010 Prius. I won't re-post my full response here, but suggest readers view it by following this link.

 

Dear Prius onwers/fanboys,

First and most important, who can trust in a post comparing the 09 Jetta TDI with the Prius by people that have already bought the Prius and, worse, many has never test driven the new Jetta?

Here are the facts: I'm not a Totota or VW owner or fanboy, I own 2 hondas! I'm just looking for a car with good HWY eficiency and pleasant to drive because I will be driving 36,000 HWY miles/year for a period of hopefuly 5 years.

My reviews are not biased!

Look at my first thread here. I published it right after test driving the new Prius and felt in love with the car, despite of feeling the weak performance of first time driving a hybrid. Then, in the next day, I test drove the 09 Jetta TDI and completely changed my mind. If you guys are happy with your Prius, fine, but my reviews are meant mainly to people who is trying to decide which one to buy. And the number of people in this pool is a lot more than Toyota was expecting. Surprise!

For those interested bellow is a sorce that explain all about the new diesel engines and why they are not only cleaner but a lot more durable too. Remenber, being green is not just about carbon emissions. Althouth the emissions in the Prius and Jetta are very similar, other factors make the Jetta a lot greener than the Prius. These are the best kept secret in america and will drive toyota and honda hybrid technology crazy in the next years. Trust me.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4237945.html


In the other site bellow, you will find information explaining why the Jetta TDI is a much better value than the Prius.

http://www.epinions.com/review/2009_Volkswagen_Jetta/content_451596881540

So, the 09 Jetta TDI is not only cleaner, safer, cheaper, and greener than the 2010 Prius, but also carry a better value and most importatly, deliver the pleasure of driving.

NOW, the most interesting part: Some people have both cars, not many, but they exist! The vast majority prefer the Jetta TDI, no wonder, so I'm starting feeling sorry for those who never considered the Jetta before buying a Prius...

 

I wonder perhaps what your goals are here, other than publicly demonstrating that you're a d*ck by calling us fanboys?

Being a Prius forum most of us are going to be fans of our cars and bought them specifically because we like them.

I'm exactly the demographic that you think would prefer the VW. I am a hardcore car enthusiast that owns 4 cars, spent time as a high speed racing track day instructor at Laguna Seca, and live in the mountains surrounded by some of the best twisty roads in the world. And I prefer the Prius while acknowledging that both are fine choices. It's a fine tool for the job. Knocking the Prius for being 5% more pig-like on the road than the already total pig VW TDI is like me complaining about the trunk space on my Carrera, the gas mileage of my BMW M5 or the passenger room of my motorcycle.

 

You started out like you were interested in a respectfull discussion but now you sound like a troll. You are a fanboy also.

As far as reliability, which certainly would affect cost of ownership, Consumers reports survey of owners shows the Prius as being one of the most reliable cars on the road, more reliable than any VW or Audi model. That's not a bias, that's analysis of data directly from owners.

Roy

 

Motorcycle??? What idiot wants a motorcycle. I mean seriously, how many cup holders do you have on one of them?

 

Roy, sorry if my latest posts sounded like I'm deviating from my main goal, which was indeed having an interesting discussion about both cars. I believe I took a more aggressive attitude after some users of this bog were a lot more aggressive when addressing my research facts collected so far compared to the users of the Jetta TDI forum. Many folks in the TDI forum, under the same type of discussion, pointed out the good things about the new Prius (some even suggested that it may work better for my needs if I intend to get rid of the car in 2-3 years), so they seem lot more mature, while here, no matter what I say, I get attacked by Prius or Prius-to-be-owners. The way people addressed my comments here sounded a lot like those fanboys, even though most of them are probably not. You know, you choose a car and invest big bucks on it, so you better justify your investment. That's probably what is fueling the hot comments here. Chill out guys...

 

If you truly believe it buy the Jetta TDI. I sounds like you've already made up your mind and you are not open for discussion or learn anything new! Good luck with your purchase and BTW, update your profile. It is saying that your car is 2010 Prius.