Don't Be Fueled: Gas vs. Diesel vs. Hybrid Power

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius\";p=\"87219)</div>

Well... ownership costs do figure into that. Do you think after 5 years the Rio/Accent/Echo (I am leaving the Civic out) will be worth as much as a MINI? There's no way in hell that would happen... the MINI is going to hold it's value much better.

And the MINI is a bit more upmarket than the 3 I mentioned above. Better materials, better quality, less hard plastic, etc.

 

As a journalist, I hate so see such sloppy reporting. But where to begin critiquing such a misleading story?

1. After mentioning "concern for the environment" in the lead, there's not one subsequent mention of emissions. After mentioning "U.S. dollars that flow to the Middle East for oil," there's no estimate of how many barrels of oil it would save the country if, say, one-half of all cars got 40 mpg.

2. There are two inane projections of current prices into the distant future - gasoline and batteries - both of which not-necessarily-coincidentally make hybrids seem more expensive than they really are. The "balance" to the battery statement is a masterpiece of inanity: "But several auto analysts figure that the popularity of hybrids will prompt greater production of battery packs and thus, lower their prices. Time will tell." Umm, popularity of hybrids won't "prompt" greater battery pack production; it is already requiring greater battery pack production. For battery prices NOT to go down would require a major exception to the general law of economy of scale.

3. There are classic 'he said/she said" treatments of battery pollution and emergency worker electric shock. Overworked reporters love the "he said/she said" format because it gives the impression of balance without requiring us to do any actual research. But anyone who's studied these topics at all knows they're complete non-issues. They continue to live in the media through the laziness of journalists who uncritically repeat what they've read.

4. There's more uncritical repetition of the Consumer Reports mileage figures. Why not flesh this out with the GreenHybrid mileage database, a larger and more representative source of real-world information?

5. And there are outright errors, such as understating the $2,000 federal tax deduction.

 

Hmmm... I think the article was mostly overly cautious, with a few forays into unfounded rumor or mistakes (the emergency response situation urban legend; the refund is $2K).

Same for her report on diesels -- again, overly cautious, or repeating stories that were true about 10-15 year old diesels.

Re: the Mini: Consumer Reports customer surveys found that the new Minis have a pretty poor reliability/repair records with people who responded. (They also responded with a very high customer satisfaction rating, so take it for what it's worth.)

 

Modern journalism is a terrible job. Every story must have exactly two equally-weighted sides, and someone will find errors in every piece.

 

I must admit, much as I love the GreenHybrid database, it doesn't meet a statistical means test for reliability. Besides being too few respondants to account for real-world variabilities, the people posting aren't verified and are self selected, giving you too many with a bias (positive or negative) to skew the database. It's the same reason Nielsens won't accept volunteers (and prefer automatic recording vs. manual) - to keep show fanatics from messing up their data.

I find the database very interesting and hope it continues to develop. I just won't use it for evidence.

Consumer Reports method, while not perfect, at least is consistent among different types of cars, and the 45MPG is credible with what most get without trying. Civic & Accord Hybrid got terrible results, I can't tell if they're accurate or not.

 

For comparisons..

When I printed out comparison data for the notebook I made for Earth Day I used fueleconomy.gov

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/hybrid_sbs.shtml

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/hybrid_news.shtml

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/hybrid_links.shtml

It lists not only the EPA mileage but also emissions as well as other data comparing the cars. That way you can compare a dirty car with good mileage to the Prius, or a tiny car with good mileage to the Prius or a Prius to a car the same size that gets half the mileage......

The info I handed out to reporters that day had these links as well as others. Hopefully someone did their homework.

 

What is it with the passat. People with an axe to grind against hybrids seem to driven to say stupid things about it. From this article:

"Yet the 2.0-liter four-cylinder engine in the Passat TDI, as the diesel versions are called, puts out an amazing 247 lb-ft of torque at a low 1900 rpm vs. the 166 lb-ft of torque at 1950 rpm in the 1.8-liter four-cylinder gasoline engine in the base Passat sedan."

Yeah, amazing. The prius does ~300 ft-lbs (400 n-m) at 0 rpm (well the engine is off!).

A diesel anecdote: a colleague drove one of those "200,000" diesel M-B's still on the road, asked me after observing me moving to the front of the line on my bicycle at a red light if I'd ever been able to pass a car for real. My reply was "only diesels".

 

Oh, I almost forgot...
This article and the previous were on MSN. The other day, /. carried an article about Gates lecturing Detroit on making safer cars through the use of computers, presumably windows based! Aside from generating howls of laughter, it seems he's trying to cozy up to Detroit and producing FUD is SOP for microsoft when faced with superior competition.
You can remove your tinfoil hat, now.

 

What always gets me when someone points at diesel cars as "economical" because of the MPG is that they ignore the fact that, at least right now in this area, diesel costs more than gasoline (.15-.20/gallon). I don't know how common this price disparity is across the States, but it doesn't help as much to get 5 MPG more is you're paying 5-10% more for the fuel...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(gschoen\";p=\"87325)</div>

You're right - but what I like about the GreenHybrid database is that one look at it should cure anyone of the notion that there is a "normal" mpg for the Prius. There are variables with any car, but variables that make a difference of 3 or 4 mpg on a low mpg car can make a 9 or 12 mpg difference with the Prius. To say the Prius gets 44 mpg is no more accurate - well, only a LITTLE more accurate - than to say it gets 55.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dan Gross\";p=\"87397)</div>

and the euro diesels won't be widespread in the US until we switch to low sulfer diesel in...2007? Anyway, who thinks it will cost less than the stuff in the pumps now?

 

As a previous 1996 Passat TDI owner and a new Prius owner I have some first hand experience for comparison.

Passat Pros:

1) The Passat got consistently 47 mpg without changing my driving habits. In the Prius, I have to be constantly aware of my driving or my mpg results fluctuate wildly.

2) The Passat seats were MUCH more comfortable.

3) The value of the Passat held up. $12,000 or half of what I paid for it 9 years ago (I had low, 108k miles on it). Yes, it floored me too, but it ended up being one of those cult cars. I posted it on the internet and my phone didn't stop ringing for 8 hours straight. It's not known what the value of the Prius will be after 9-10 years.

4) Long distance between tank fills. I had a 20 gallon tank that could take me 900-1000 miles between tankfuls. Fill up 5-6 times and change the oil.

5) One of the best features was the automatic windows control. On a hot day I could roll down all the windows before I opened the door. All the heat was flushed in seconds. Subsequently, I could close all windows, including the sunroof after I exited the car. Nice when I forgot to close the sunroof, or a passenger forgot to shut their window.

6) Passenger front automatic window. Like the driver side, you can bring the window completely down or up with one press of the button. In a 5-speed, this saved trying to drive, shift and roll the window down concurrently.

7) Personal preference. The manual stick-shift was fun to drive. Since the Prius even locks me out from working display I feel restless rather than restful sometimes.

8 ) Handling. The suspension was tighter and I could feel the road with the steering. In the Prius the steering is just plain weird. It doesn't behave like any other car I've driven. It took me awhile to get used to the understeering and the slow rollback after a turn.

9) Construction material. My Passat looked showroom new after 9 years (I waxed it only a handful of times and used a damp cloth on the interior). The only non-routine item I had to replace was a window motor (and it got very heavy use: see (5)). After evaluating the plastic and cardboard(ish) surfaces on the Prius it will take tender-loving care and hard work to do the same with the Prius.

Passat cons:

1) Fumes right after starting. I got in the habit of pushing the recirculate button before pulling out of the garage. Otherwise I pulled in all those fumes. Once warm this usually wasn't an issue.

2) Acceleration. This engine was a bit underpowered for the Passat in my opinion. The Prius is much more responsive.

3) Noise. People could definitely hear you coming. The interior wasn't bad, because it seemed to project the noise forward. I sometimes got some strange looks when they realized that the Mack truck was really me.

In some respects (3) is a plus. I've only had my Prius for almost 2 weeks and I've already had a couple of close calls from joggers that didn't hear me coming.

To be fair, I drove the Passat for 9 years and the Prius for under 2 weeks. At this time it's a bit premature to say which one I prefer to drive. Bottom line is that neither one is something to dismiss from consideration; they both have pluses and minuses

 

Quick question, GAGendel: why not another Passat TDI for you? What swayed you to a Prius? It sounds as if the Passat was a great car for ya! And that's half the battle sometimes, finding a car that really suits a person. Just curious...

 

I looked at the new Passat TDI, but it's just not the same...

1) No manual stick shift
2) EPA rating dropped 11 MPG.

Which takes the fun out of owning one.

 

Just slightly off topic but the future long term may well be a bio diesel electric hybrid that operates like the Prius system does, either or both systems can move the car forward.

Someone in Seattle is building a bio diesel plant.

Did you know that the USA is one of the worlds largest food exporters and that foodstuffs make up much of our exports?

 

Another religious topic, I'm afraid. I've been told that Biodiesel actually produces more pollution than diesel. Go figure.

 

That is correct, biodiesel is actually dirtier. NOx emissions increase, rather than decrease which "bio" seems to imply. The future of biodiesel is a mystery. The 2% push is such a tiny amount, what's the point for non-commercial use?

Today, the governor of Minnesota is expected to pass the bill that will require E20 (20% ethanol, 80% gas) starting in 2013. Currently, all gas in Minnesota is already E10 (10% ethanol, 90% gas) and has been for many years.

All gas vehicles already support E10 . Many are thought to handle E20 just fine as well. But without today's mandate, certification for that 20% wouldn't of had much meaning since there were no plans for anyone to sell E20. Now, everyone in Minnesota will. And hopefully, other states will join in. After all, they are already in lower percentages for the replacement of MTBE... which is yet another strike against biodiesel.

Why not just keep increasing the percentage blend of ethanol? There are already over 1,000,000 vehicles nationwide capable of using E85. Why not just expand to that, especially since it has proven reliable already?

And what would the benefit of a diesel/biodiesel hybrid be?