When to do 1st oil change?

Since we're stuck with oil changes every 6 months or 5,000mi / 8,000km, I would guess that for the vast majority of Prius drivers the regular 5W-30 should work fine.

In my climate, with the nasty -40 winters, I will absolutely be using Mobil 1 0W-30 or Castrol 0W-30. I may even try it in summer to see if I can gain fuel economy.

If I can gain 5 MPG then it should break-even over the oil change and I won't feel so bad about running it. I won't run it though if my fuel economy stays the same.

 

I think you are referring to the pink coolant, not the oil.

 

As for doing a study, CU has already done that. They found that you don't need to change oil any more frequently than 6000 miles. Any more and you had dino oil deteriorating AND contamination. With synth, you don't have deterioration, but you STILL had contamination. They did agree that 3000 miles was a waste.

Now they did say you might be able to get more than 6000, but recommended doing oil analysis. Since it is usually cheaper to change the oil than doing analyses often, change the oil after 6K.

So, again, how the europeans get away with contaminated oil after driving past 6000 miles and we don't, I don't understand. I do understand the oil itself may hold up, but it doesn't explain the contamination. Nobody has been able to explain that to my satisfaction.

 

As much as I used to like CU, I just don't think that they do anything special for complex subjects such as this one. Here is what they have to say now:

"Myth: Engine oil should be changed every 3,000 miles.

Reality: Although oil companies and quick-lube shops like to promote this idea, it's usually not necessary. Go by the recommended oil-change schedule in your vehicle's owner's manual. Most vehicles driven under normal conditions can go 7,500 miles or more between oil changes. Some models now come with a monitoring system that alerts the driver when the oil needs changing. Depending on driving conditions, these can extend change intervals to 10,000 or 15,000 miles. "
http://www.consumerreports.org/main/detail...D=1115063374176

As for contamination, particulate matter that is large enough should get stuck in the oil filter. Other substances can be neutralized by the oil (the oil is a base), water can be evaporated if the engine reaches the proper operating temperature and that leaves a few contaminants that can be held in suspension by a good oil. Whatever is left over may or not be up to no good.

A more scientific way to to this would be to use Royal Purple Synthetic oil and get a $10 oil sample kit from them. They will tell you if you should change or keep going. If you were to do this a few times you could come up with an educated guess as to what your oil change interval could be.

Here is the email I received from Royal Purple today:

"Gen2:
At this time without doing an oil analyst program on your Prirus, it
would be hard to say how long the oil would last in the engine. If you
were to buy our oil and give us proof of the purchase, we will sell you
an oil analyst kit for $10.00. This kit would give you all you need to
sample the oil at 5k miles and send the sample in to see if you could
run longer on our oil. You would perform this process several times
until the lab told you to change out the oil. This may require two to
three more kits to find your ultimate change out miles.

Thanks
Michael Thompson
Instrumentation & Monitoring
Royal Purple Ltd.
[email protected]"

 

Dan:

The "contamination" issue is complex and mostly hocus-pocus, but here we go:

1. Motor design. Any decent motor from a major manufacturer, made within the past 10 years or so, is made entirely different then they used to be.

In the "good 'ole days" they used to hand assemble motors. Cylinders were honed by hand and the cylinder finish was mostly smooth. There was a lot of variability in this process, causing a lot of blowby.

A process first used in HD diesel motors, a precise crosshatch hone pattern, is applied to most cars. The fine crosshatch tends to maintain a much better seal with the piston and minimize blowby.

The honing process is fully automated and done with a CNC machine. A deck plate is bolted to the block using the same torque values as the cylinder head. This ensures the block is under the same stress and deflection as if it had a real cylinder head bolted down.

Then the hone is applied in a special multi-angle crosshatch. Since the deck plate is on during this process, you can be assured the block will present a cylinder surface that exactly meets the rings. Once the deck plate comes off, it will appear the hone finish is improper, but once the cylinder head is applied the finish is matched to the rings.

At one time pistons were made cheap from a material that experienced a lot of thermal expansion, so the piston was sized somewhat small to compensate. This allowed more blowby. Most motors now use a very low thermal expansion piston, like a hypereutectic piston, which allows for a much tighter fit.

Piston rings have changed a lot too. The old fashioned low tension rings, thought necessary to reduce friction, allowed a lot of blowby and a lot of oil consumption too. A leakdown test would usually give 2-5% on a brand new engine, greater than 10% on a motor with some miles on it. That's a lot of blowby.

A lot of this break-in myth started with that too: early and frequent oil changes were needed to "seat" the rings. Otherwise you'd *really* have blowby and leave a smoke cloud behind. This is why when a backyard mechanic tries to rebuild their motor, the results aren't that hot.

Modern gapless and high tension rings help seal much better. Most modern rings are also moly coated with a special vacuum deposition process, which ensures a tighter seal in a crosshatched cylinder and also helps reduce friction. A leakdown test with this new technology typically is 0% new, and less than 5% used.

We can "thank" emissions regulations for changing how motors were made. There was no way to meet emissions and have the catalytic converter last any reasonable length of time with all that unburned fuel and all that blowby.

In the end, the modern automated CNC finish and assembly techniques, and the new piston and ring designs, have gone a long way to *really* minimize contamination of the oil from blowby. There is no comparison between a new motor made 20 years ago and one made now: it's much tighter and will stay tighter, with a small fraction of the contaminants.

2. Oil chemistry. At one time, an API "certified" oil had truly awful specs: it could thicken 500% and be 45% volatile in the 60 hour engine test. In contrast, an ACEA oil had limits of 150% thickening and 30% volatility for 150 hours back then.

Also, a Heavy Duty diesel oil, like a 15W-40 or a straight SAE 30, *must* be certified to work in a turbocharged high output diesel motor, so it had limits of 100% thickening and 25% volatility. The HD engine makers became concerned about stuck rings in the emission-controlled motors made after 1988, so they also specified Ring Land sticking control.

Primarily, the HD engine makers set limits on Top Ring Fill, now around 15%. API makes no such recommendation regarding Ring Land or Crown Land fill. ACEA started setting limits on Ring Land fill and rating of stuck rings (Not allowed or the oil fails) in the 200 hour test around 10 years ago.

One important point about the ACEA oils is the different legal environment in Europe. First of all, the ACEA represents engine makers and car makers, not oil companies (Not self-serving by promoting "frequent" oil changes). Second of all, there is no Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act.

The car maker, with input to the ACEA, is free to tell you exactly what oil to use to ensure long service life. Here we've been raised under this myth that oil oils are exactly the same, when it should be at least intuitively obvious that you can and should tailor a motor oil to a specific use.

The oil chemistry, especially to meet the 200 hour test, must contain additives and detergents to neutralize the primary problem with gasolene motors: acid buildup. You can always tell a cheap borderline motor oil as it is "neutral" with a TBN of under 5.

In contrast, a good passenger car synthetic will have a TBN of at least 10. Every modern diesel motor oil has a TBN of 12-15. This is many times the reserve capability to allow the oil to meet the 200 hour test.

Modern synthetic oils can have much higher detergent levels as they don't use the polymer additives like cheap oils do. IOW most ester/PAO oils are inherently stable and thermally much more stable than conventional oils.

Combine the high TBN with strong detergents and friction modifiers, and whatever trash that ends up in the oil is safely held in suspension. This is known as "dispersion." It prevents contaminants from building up on bearings or rings or seals. Most people worry when a synthetic has the TBN fall to 5, but this is still a bit higher than fresh cheap 5W-30.

I think that's why my old 1984 Ford F-150 (I bought it new) is in such good shape mechanically. I never ran cheap passenger car oil in it, I always ran either a SAE 30 or 15W-40 diesel motor oil in summer, and a 0W-30 in winter.

Note: Under no circumstances try to run a HD diesel motor oil in a modern gasolene motor unless the manufacturer specifically approves it. The oil additives such as phosphorous and molybdenum are not compatible with O2 sensors or catalytic converters.

3. Fuel. Back when cars ran on lead, you would actually expect a large amount of lead ash in the motor. This stuff tended to build up on the piston skirts and in the Ring Land area of the piston. Eventually, the rings would stick and things went downhill.

Modern low-sulphur fuels with basic detergents already blended in, especially ethanol blending, help promote a *very* clean motor.

Again we can thank EPA Clean Air regulations for this. The Europeans have went to Low Sulphur in diesel fuel quite a few years ago, to help clean up the emissions. Sulphur is a major problem when refining "sour" crude like that cheap stuff from the mideast.

4. Fuel injection. Back when everything had a carb, there was *no* way you could precisely control the fuel/air mixture. Inevitably it was too rich, which caused cylinder wash.

This put a lot of unburned fuel in the crank, which really destroyed the oil in short order. Remember that gasolene is like a solvent. Eventually, the cylinder developed a distinct barrel-shaped taper to it and had low compression and a lot of blowby, which further degraded the oil by putting a lot of trash in the crank.

With modern electronic fuel injection, fuel dilution is almost unheard of. Thanks to a closed loop system with feedback, the O2 sensor helps trim the basic fuel map to very precisely control how much fuel is added. This is especially important during starting and warmup when most emissions are generated, and most oil contamination occurs.

Under normal running, the O2 sensor can finely adjust the fuel map to keep emissions and contamination to an absolute minimum. You just can't do that with a carb.

IMHO the use of electronic fuel injection was the single greatest contributor to long engine life and long oil life.

I hope this helps explain the issue of "contamination." Again, remember that in Europe there is no Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, so the auto maker is free to specify *exactly* what oil they want used. So they can specify a top-notch synthetic that easily holds up.

Here, with the exception of certain European cars, we are led to believe that 88 cent a quart 5W-30 is wonderful stuff and is good for every use. It might be ok for "average" demands, but you won't catch me using that garbage.

 

Jayman,

Well said, thank you.

Bob

 

Thank you jayman for a great post!

 

I actually understood some of that.

Okay, now I have some questions.

I have purchased a magnetic oil plug to bring with me when I have my oil changed for the first time. I will assume that if I ask that they use my plug they will. I will also request they give me the old plug to keep as a backup.

If I want a high quality synthetic oil, will I have to bring that with me too? Will the Toyota service department insist on using their oil, whatever it is? And what *is* a high quality synthetic oil? I've learned that FRAM filters are cr@p and I never knew that or I wouldn't have bought them for my Nissan. I let the Saturn people use whatever filters and oil they wanted. But I want to treat my Prius as well as I can so I'm trying to learn. So what name brand is a good quality synthetic oil?

 

Most techs will have no trouble following your request. I can't speak for all but they shouldn't give you too much trouble. The original plug is yours, you paid for it when you bought the car ya know

We use Castrol Syntec, others I have seen use Mobil 1. My hubby insists on the Castrol oil and Toyota filters. He's the one who works on cars all day, not me, so I let him choose what's best for the car. He refuses to use anything that isn't top of the line for me, protective of his new wife and all

As for bringing your own oil to the dealer, yes, you will have to do that. Most dealers carry only 1 or 2 kinds of oil that they buy in bulk (and i mean bulk!)

 

Re: I actually understood some of that.

It depends on the shop. I have had dealersips refuse to install magnetic plugs or use the synthoil I brought with me. It doesn't hurt to ask. I also had one dealership take out the plug I had installed and replace it with a Toyota drain plug, they told me they were doing me a favor, I don't think so.

 

Castrol Syntec is OK (I'vbe used it for years) but keep in mind that it is not a full PAO synthetic. It is dino that is restructured and blended so in the end it winds up being part dino and part synth.

Just for general information, the top brands of full PAO synthetics are (arguably):
Redline (I used this one very successfully for many years until the price went through the roof)
Royal Purple (now the darling of the racing community, it promises to give Redline-like performance at more reasonable prices)
Mobil 1 (possibly the most well known synthetic, factory installed on some hot rods and exotics)
AMSoil (most known for their direct marketing technique, probably a very good oil despite of this)
Motul (Better known ouside the US, I have no experience with it)

Partial synthetics (blends, not pure PAO)
Castrol Syntec

Don't know anything about the following:
Agip
Quaker State
Chevron
Valvoline
Texaco Havoline
Pennzoil
Sunoco Dynatech

If you really want to blow your mind, check out SynLube. (I mean read about it, I donlt know if this stuff works or not.) They claim you never have to change their oil.

 

Re: I actually understood some of that.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva\";p=\"86646)</div>

The issue of a magnetic drain plug is probably up to whoever changes the oil. Some vehicles, such as my former GMC Sierra with POS Vortec motor, came from the factory with a magnetic drain plug. In hindsight, it probably *needed* it!

I'm wondering if a magnetic drain plug is necessary in the motor. Based on the handful of Used Oil Analysis for the Echo, that motor has *very* low wear numbers. If you already have the plug, go ahead and use it. It sure can't hurt.

My local Toyota dealer, where I purchased my Prius, has a wide selection of synthetic oils and is also an Amsoil distributor. So they have "seen the light" WRT synthetic oils and try to always encourage their customers to switch to either Mobil 1 or Amsoil after a minimum 10,000km break-in.

I suppose that most of that is just good marketing, but it does seem unusual that a dealer is willing to sell other brand oils.

 

First oil change I need to do is within a Year or 15.000Km... And that is not much... Most new cars need only to change oil every 30.000km!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee\";p=\"86651)</div>

With all due respect, Castrol Syntec is nothing more than a fancy "blend." It's *not* a "real" synthetic. Only a PAO and/or Ester base can be considered a "real" synthetic.

There has been a lot of debate over the issue of Group III and Group IV basestocks, coming to a head a few years ago when Mobil tried to sue Castrol over "deceptive" marketing. At the time, Castrol claimed they were "just as good" as Mobil 1 and a bit cheaper.

In the end, Mobil lost the legal battle due to tricky legal semantics on Castrol's part: the court ruled that "blends" were also Synthetics, since they were Man Made.

What a crock! Every, and I mean *every* motor oil is "man made" to a certain extent. You don't poke a hole in the ground and have 10W-30 gush out. I have no love for ExxonMobil or whatever the h*** they call themselves today, but their technical argument is a valid one.

Now any oil refiner, at least in North America, can offer a "synthetic" motor oil even if it's only a 10% blend. So for that reason alone I refuse to use most of Castrol's "synthetic" oils. Their only "real" synthetic oil is their 0W-30, which is made in Germany and is green in color.

As far as that goes, the Ford/Honda 5W-20 spec is also a "blend" to meet the oxidation requirements. I don't see Ford or Honda dealers referring to their 5W-20 as "synthetic" do you??

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Gen2\";p=\"86678)</div>

All your listed choices are "good" as far as their performance. In Europe the Agip and Motul brands are well-respected and part of a very short list that meets the demanding VW and BMW extended service life requirements.

I like the Castrol 0W-30 as it's their only "real" synthetic. I generally avoid their blended "Syntec" brands, you can get a much better buy from other blends.

For example: here in Canada you can purchase the heavy duty Esso XD-3 0W-30 or 0W-40, which claims to use a PAO basestock. A 4 litre jug is priced at $4.50 a litre, and it meets the demanding Cummins 20078 test. Last time I checked, Syntec was priced around $7.50 a litre at Canadian Tire. Pass.

Properly formulated synlubes, in combination with good filters, in a properly constructed motor, can be considered "lifetime lube." How about the HD Cummins motors with the optional Centinel system and approved synthetic oil? That system is also a "lifetime lube."

Let's face it: most motor oil companies are in the business to make money. They can only make money if you occasionally change the oil, right? In the extreme case, if you have oil at $1 a quart and have the customer change the oil every 3,000 miles, you're rolling in the dough.

Seems to me, if a company developed a "lifetime" oil they would have to have a very high entry price. IOW they automatically shoot themselves in the foot and put themselves out of business if the oil is lifetime fill.

If the company survives and can offer a warranty, it's on them if anything happens. And realistically, even with poor maintenance, motors are so well made now, along with even cheap oils, that you should get at least 60,000-100,000 miles out of it at worst.

What do you think of that new 0W-5 oil? No, that's not a typo, it's viscosity at operating temp is SAE 5. Apparently, there are huge benefits to fuel economy and power, with *lower* wear.

http://www.neosyntheticoil.com/0w5.htm

Remember that, everything else kept equal, a low viscosity oil has *lower* operating temps due to much lower pumping and friction losses. If you have an oil temp sender in the pan, a 20W-50 will result in *higher* oil temps on a hot day than a 0W-30.

 

Jayman, the test was done on a modern engine, with modern fuel, and with modern oil, both dino and synthetic.

The test was done on NYC taxi cabs. Now someone mentioned at one time that this was not a fair test, as taxi's were always kept hot, even if they ran long.
OK, I submit to that, but then the oil change recommendation should be shorter, not longer, if the test was invalid for that reason. They did the oil sampling, they did the engine examinations.

Now Gen2 did a good explanation for me FINALLY!
However, if you do more than 3 oil tests, you've broken even with getting a simple oil change, with the extra 'checks'.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DanMan32\";p=\"86754)</div>

Dan:

That was with early 90's vintage Chevy Caprice small blocks? Didn't some of them have TBI instead of multi-port fuel injection? Let's not forget that a constant idle, stop-n-go environment isn't very suited to extended oil change intervals.

An important point is that there shouldn't be a hard-and-fast rule. Obviously, short trip city driving should have a shorter interval than constant Interstate driving. Under Winnipeg conditions of -40 in winter, 6 months or 8,000km is prudent. On the highway, why not 16,000km or longer?

The motor will run too cold in cold temps and will run too hot - due to A/C use - in summer. Still, even under *those* conditions, CR concluded that changing the oil more frequently then 6,000 miles is a waste of money. And that was with a Chevy Caprice.

I have no love or respect for most modern Chevy motors. There are exceptions, and the 350 V8 and 3.8 litre V6 are durable favorites of mine, but most of their modern designs are garbage.

Consider the Vortec 5.3 V8 in my former 2000 GMC Sierra. That thing would knock like an old diesel, it burned 1 litre of oil every 6,000km (GM considered 1 litre every 1,600km "normal"), and the few times I sampled the used oil the wear metals were *very* high.

If you really want an eye-opener, take a peek at:

http://www.pistonslap.com

With a POS motor like that, there is no way in h*** I would consider extended oil changes. Though if you're already burning 1 quart every 1,000 miles, like most Vortec owners, then why bother changing the oil? Just add it.

I would like to see a UOA database for a motor the same or similar to the one used in our Prius. If I recall, a member here did post some UOA results awhile back and the 1.5 litre motor appears to have *very* low wear metals.

Consider that the extended-life oils in Europe are run under ACEA sequence 200 hour cycles. The test engineer isn't allowed to add one drop of oil. After the test, the oil isn't allowed to thicken more than 50%, no sludge or ring sticking, Ring Land fill of under 15%, and the measured wear limits are very low too.

Only a well-blended synthetic can meet that test regime, so compared to other motors the European Prius appears to have *higher* maintenance requirements as the oil change interval is "only" every 16,000km.

In contrast to the API test sequence: oil can thicken 250%, test engineer is allowed to add 7.5 litres during the test sequence, test sequence only 60 hours, minimal sludge allowed, no stuck rings allowed but ring fill allowed, and higher measured wear limits.

Consider how VW managed to design a motor and, with Castrol, develop a synthetic 0W-30 oil (Not the Syntec garbage they make) that is designed for up to 2 year or 30,000km (Gasolene motor) oil change intervals. These motors appear to be holding up very well past 300,000km.

Again, as I stated earlier, modern engine assembly techniques and materials, combined with precise fuel control and good oil chemistry, have radically changed our notion of when to do oil changes.

As long as the API and their member oil company and Qwik Lube shops still push their marketing myth that "all oils are the same" and "you have to change your oil every 3,000 miles" then people will still refuse to believe evidence to the contrary. Have a peek at the standards for ACEA:

http://www.acea.be

Note the represent the vehicle manufacturer, not an oil company. So they're not self-serving. Also revisit the VW extended change regime. Amazing they have a test motor running without an oil change that long and is still in great shape:

http://www.vw.co.uk/services/servicing

http://www.vw.co.uk/services/servicing/lon..._service_regime

http://www.vw.co.uk/assets/Longlife_servicing.pdf

Sort of how like race car engine builder and father of the 350 small block, Smokey Yunick, first brought up the subject of extended oil changes in the 70's. He even carefully documented and proved the idea on his own engine dynometer. Not too many folks own an engine dynometer.

Of course, people thought he was absolutely insane as he had gone far outside the "comfort envelope" of conventional wisdom. He had even proposed running synthetic 5W-20 instead of the "normal" 10W-40 oils of the time.

Hmmm. Ford and Honda now recommend a 5W-20 in most of their motors, even large V10 powered motorhomes. And most of those applications now have oil change intervals that, although considered ridiculously short by European standards, would have been considered suicidal for the motor by 1976 standards.

I'm honestly puzzled over your absolute disbelief in the fact that most motors - with the exception of that POS Vortec Thank You Very Much - will live long lives under extended oil change regimes. This has been proven in Europe, and we have the same motors here.

Jay

 

After reading one of these posts I took my 1100 mile Prius for its first oil change and the Toyota man told me to come back in a few thousand miles. I explained to him what the post said about metal shards potentially being lodged in and he said absolutly no way. He wouldn't do the oil change and I trust him. Maybe it is different here in Chicago.

Dawn

 

Still no answer, or backwards answer and lots of double talk.

I am still trying to get a straight answer to why europeans are allowed to extend their oil changes. The closest thing to a legit answer I have heard so far, but still question, is that the oil is a base and counteracts acid buildup from engine combustion. Of course that would mean the oil itself would be doing harm when new, until the base was neutralized; base is just as caustic to metal as acid.

Dawn, an oil change at 1K was not necessary, and you don't need an oil change for another 5K. You may want to do it early when your ODO reaches 5K so you keep in sync with 5K intervals, but that's a personal choice for reasons of habit and convenience.

 

These posts make interesting reading, but can I ask if anyone has guidelines for owners living in hotter climates? Here in Australia, we are just coming into winter (average 10deg. C- 20deg. C.), but summer temps go from average 20deg. C.-40deg. C. These are hotter than temps quoted in these posts for U.S. environments.
Any info on higher temperature guidelines and oil types would be appreciated.