What services you need and what you don't

For those interested in a breakdown of an '02 Prius TB (The '04-'09 is similar) our resident mad scientist Hobbit has a great discussion on his site

http://techno-fandom.org/~hobbit/cars/tb/

Hope this helps. As this is a fairly serious discussion of "what services you need" let's leave the name calling and personal insults to PM's

 

Re: What services you need and what you don't

Coming up on my first oil change. I live in Sunny Florida and the Summers are wet and hot but not like Vegas hot. Is 0W30 ok or should I stick to 5W30? I will be taking my oil to the dealer so are there any problems with the dealer saying go away//wrong weight oil????

 

Re: What services you need and what you don't

This can be a confusing topic, so I'll try to keep it simple

A 0W oil of any flavor (0W-20, 0W-30, 0W-40) has to meet the SAE J300 specifications for a 0W oil. That means at -40 C, the maximum cold pumping viscosity is 60,000 cP or centipoise.

The viscosity measurement for cold pumping - centipoise - is a dynamic measurement. The testing protocol is ASTM D4684

A 5W oil of any flavor (5W-20, 5W-30, etc) has to meet the SAE J300 specifications for a 5W oil. That means at -35 C, the maximum cold pumping viscosity is 60,000 cP

At the other end of the scale, any oil claiming to be a "30" (0W-30, 5W-30, 10W-30, 30) must have an operating viscosity range of 9.3-12.5 cSt (Centistokes) at +100 C. The operating viscosity is a kinematic measurement and is covered under ASTM D445

So, what does all that mean?

In real world testing, many 0W-30 oils are far superior to conventional 5W-30 oils, especially for low temperature pumping. Many conventional 5W-30 oils test "borderline" at only -25 C. Some 0W-30 oils, such as Castrol Syntec 0W-30 (Made in Germany), actually have *better* operating temperature protection than conventional 5W-30

A 0W-30 is entirely appropriate for any motor that calls for a 10W-30 or 5W-30. But your dealership will probably react in horror, telling you that you'll blow up the motor, etc. It wouldn't hurt to ask them first, before you show up with oil that will cause a negative reaction. There have been incidents of some dealerships acting so snotty, they'll put on the work order "wrong oil supplied, warranty void"

I'd use the 0W-30 without hesitation. But one other factor to take into account, I doubt you will even see +20 F for a low temp where you live, let alone -40. I like Mobil 1 0W-30 and Castrol Syntec 0W-30, but for your climate, the benefits are so minor (Better cold start protection and teeny fuel economy improvement) they may not be worth the hassle

 

Re: What services you need and what you don't

ok, I will show with a jug of each and see what they will do. Seems like 5W30 full synthetic for mild to hot climates will be fine anyway.

 

Re: What services you need and what you don't

I agree

If you want to have a bit of evil fun, when you pop in for your service appointment, ask the guy what the "5W" in 5W-30 means. You'll likely get very amusing and laughible responses, such as "oh, that's the viscosity at 0 F"

 

Re: What services you need and what you don't

As I originally asserted, the throttle body blade is being continually bathed in fuel/air vapors due to the compression cycle pulse caused by up to 105 degrees open intake valve in the 180 degree compression stroke.

That means the plenum of the intake manifold is constantly being supplied with fresh fuel/air vapors that are forced OUT of the fuel charged cylinders during the compression stroke. Constantly, during every VVT four cycle period, fuel vapors bathe the throttle blade under pulsing currents. There are four cylinders supplying fuel/air vapors under varying pressures and velocities back into the plenum.

Please, explain to me how the "underside" of the throttle blade can be effected by "exhaust" deposits, or any other kind of deposits. What you see in the pictures you show are normal discolorations due to atmospheric micro molecular "corrosion" activities effecting the metal of the throttle blade. The "black" discolorations on my throttle blade are all in a small circle around the "left" side the throttle bar, above and below the bar. Clearly, not air flow "deposits."

The schmutz on the MAF sensor you show is caused by atmospheric contaminants; no crankcase or exhaust gunk required. In fact, no crank case or exhaust gunk possible. The even, dull patterns on the bulb and the stem is also how "deposits" on the blade should appear. The "deposits" in the pictures of the blade you showed definitely do NOT show any kind of even patterning, or dullness. There is no source of "deposits" at that point other than the common air stream past the MAF sensor and the throttle blade.

The throttle blade is being constantly cleaned by pulsing fuel/air vapors. PERIOD!

 

Re: What services you need and what you don't

Sure pal, whatever you say

 

Re: What services you need and what you don't

Many thanks--just a couple of questions--I went for an oil change (hard to get under car --and had a coupon) and a state inspection today at the dealer. Car had 31000miles and I had replaced tires/aligned with replacement three weeks ago with a local tire store.
They of course tried to sell me lots of things--including gapping the spark plugs and putting anti-seize compound on them--as well as injector flushing. I said no. I had declined the air filter and cabin filter, telling them that I had purchased these and planned to do them on my own.

They come and show me my dirty filters (not really all that dirty--just not pearly white) and indicated I should do these for $100 with labor. Many exchanges--especially about what about "no" did they not understand--and what about an oil change gave them the right to go into my glove box. At any rate, this was the last straw..

From your guidelines, the only thing I think I need to worry about is having someone look at the brakes--
Is it safe to have someone other than a Toyota trained tech do this??

Are all dealers this pushy with female customers? How do I find a "safe" nondealer service professional for a Prius?

Next question--is it wise to take the extended warranty--I'm still within 3 yrs.

Again--many thanks.

PS--the dealer wanted to charge 100 plus to look at the CV boot--wouldn't they see this anyway when I had the tires done and when they pulled the wheel for the state inspection on the brakes?

Thanks.

 

Re: What services you need and what you don't

I'm female and i didn't have this experience when i took my car in for its 30,000 mi service at Keyes Toyota in Van Nuys CA. If i hadn't been informed by this forum, maybe the service manager would've applied more pressure but he didn't seem that way. When he was writing up the service document after we discussed what i wanted to have done and some questions i (as a new Prius owner) had, he said that they recommend this $300 collection of varioius services, far beyond what it says in the Toyota service book, and i already knew i didn't even need all the things listed in the Toyota book because i'd already had some of them done. Like you I had just replaced the tires with alignment, maybe three weeks before. And i had complete whole car inspection before buying it a month or so previously. When i said i only wanted the basic things i needed, he said that i was right, i was making the right choice, and there were no more suggestions or recommendations of additional services.

I think i got taken by my Honda agency. But not the Honda agency i went to before that one when i lived somewhere else.

I do think some mechanic businesses to try to overcharge people, of both genders, and i'm sure there's something to the idea that women in particular are targets of manipulation. I imagine anyone who comes across as not mechanically savvy, male or female, will be targeted. My opinion is that if you have other Toyota dealers to choose from, try another one and on the first visit, start out saying "I was taking my car to XYZ Toyota but they were trying to sell me a lot of services i didn't need so that's why i switched to you." You probably wouldn't have a problem, as long as you consult with Prius Chat forums before taking your car in for anything.

 

I think it's appalling how so many dealers and franchise outfits pounce upon their customers as if the customers are weak prey to be harvested. I particularly notice how they go after women with a vengeance. I can't let my wife take a car in for an oil change without having these snake oil pushers trying to foist hundreds of dollars of unnecessary "services" upon her. And then I would be skeptical that most of these "services" would actually be performed. In these tough economical times, I would be especially wary.

Read the maintenance schedule in your manual and follow it. What the dealer really means when they say, "We recommend you have the following $ervice$ performed" is: "In order to help supplement our diminishing income due to fewer car sales, we recommend you have the following services performed." Restaurants use similar techniques: "Would you like to supersize that?"

Just like young people are advised, JUST SAY NO.

 

Re: What services you need and what you don't

The "safe" mechanic???

You could try Car Talk | Mechanics Files. Asking will help hone your skills discerning both car stuff and honesty. You are already asking good questions.

Usually a shop that wishes repeat business will present real information about failing parts, things like "While doing WWW we looked at XXX and found YYY." It's called good business practice for a shop to keep their customers informed and happy with their services.

Treating customers like idiots is not a way to keep them happy. Trying to charge for stuff they will see anyhow is definitely idiotic. It looks like you wont be recommending them after that greedy, stupid move.

 

Re: What services you need and what you don't

Yes, easy enough to inspect with the wheel off anyway.

If I were you, I'd never return to that dealer. Ever

 

Thanks--appreciate the suggestions. I've never changed the sparkplugs on my Prius and I have almost 104,000 miles as I noted. It's running fine and getting pretty good mileage but it has dropped about 5 mpg or so but this always happens during the winter and worst during the cold/dry spells.
Looks like I'm in for some expense if I go on and do all these maintenance items but...since I've done nothing to this point, I guess I should go on and bite the bullet. I didn't see an explicit suggestion on when to change sparkplugs but I assume that I should go on and do that with this amount of mileage, although with a hybrid I wonder if 100,000 miles here is equivalent to that number on a non-hybrid vehicle.

 

Re: What services you need and what you don't

How hard is it to change the plugs yourself, and what brand would you use? Does it have plug wires?

 

Re: What services you need and what you don't

Spark plug is Denso SK16R11. The plugs plug directly into the coils ('igniters') on top of the engine, so there are no HT leads - the ignition pulse from the ECU is at 12V. There's a bolt holding the coil in place on the cylinder head cover; once you've removed the coil you need a 16mm plug wrench (long reach) to unscrew the plugs.

 

It's best to remove the bolt that holds the relay box to the firewall, and swing that out of the way. Makes taking out the igniters much easier

The only issue is that if you leave the plugs in for +100,000 miles, they may be a bit difficult to remove. I removed the plugs for inspection at about 12 months age, and they were slightly stiff.

Put a dab of Loctite Nickel Grade Antiseize on the threads, and when I replaced them last year they were very easy to remove

 

Re: What services you need and what you don't

The problem you describe is common with all Prius vehicles. Cold weather/air will cause a drop in fuel use efficiency. In answer, the Prius community has developed a few corrections, some of which are very elaborate, some which use "corrections" available from Toyota Canada, and some which are simple.

very elaborate: Prius heat-efficiency mods
"official": Prius heat-efficiency mods
simple: Prius heat-efficiency mods

My solution follows a very simple path. Stuff 1/2 inch foam pipe insulation strips between the horizontal fins of the grills. I would post the proper URL for original details except I printed the page and then forgot to save the bookmark. The fix gives me 52+ MPG during the winter, something long distance travelers can appreciate.

Update: The original I used is hidden deep withing a very large docx file on John's Stuff - Toyota Prius and more which is somewhat difficult to get at.

http://john1701a.com/prius/documents/Prius_User-Guide_iconic.docx#_Toc224578800

In any event, heat is critical and high heat essential to proper operation of the Prius ICU as designed. Adding intake air preheater ducting is an expense that would drive production costs higher. So you add your own if you live somewhere it would do some good, like Alaska, Minnesota, or New England, or the Sierras or Cascades. (Hint, Hint, Toyota green designers)

Just as an aside, the radiator fan doesn't come on until the coolant temps get to somewhere near 190F, and looking at your spark plugs will probably convince you they do not need replacing.

 

Re: What services you need and what you don't

My 2008 Prius is 18 months old. The Maint Reqd light has come on and is staying on. Obviously I'm bringing the car in for regular maintenance soon, but how soon should that be? Does the constant light signal urgency, or is it more of a persistent reminder? We need the car for a road trip this weekend and I am wondering whether I should bring it in ASAP.
Thanks.

 

elissacl, the light you describe indicates that 5000 miles have elapsed since its 'counter' was last reset. If you choose not to get the routine service before the trip, you can search PriusChat for a sequence to make it turn off.