The Great Divide: Prius lovers are steadfast, but the haters

Re: 55 vs 65 vs 75

OMG you hit the nail right on the head! I never would have thought of that:

It's a Shaggin' Wagon!

:lol:

Actually, I've noticed a lot of nice women are attracted to my Prius. Not too many seem attracted to giant Shaggin Wagon pickup trucks.

Though admit it, the Naked Chick license plate frame or mudflap is a *classy* touch. I'm trying to find Playboy mudflaps for my Prius ... NOT.

:lol:

 

Re: The Great Divide: Prius lovers are steadfast, but the ha

A couple of things I would like to add. First on the diesel issue when the new US regulations go into effect I would suspect that the cost of diesel gas will be going up (it is supposed to be refined to burn cleaner). On the C&D article I think they missed the point of what the Prius is about (just my opinion) this is not a racecar (although I believe Toyota did soup one up to be one) and so you wont have the racecar feeling when driving one. If you want a racecar buy one if you want a reliable mode of transportation that gets GREAT gas mileage and good room and a size to carry the family buy a PRIUS. I don't think you should lump all cars into one mold and try to compare them (lets face it I won't be winning any races against a Porsche but I will get a hell of a lot better gas mileage) but that seems to be the way these magazines do comparisons.

Bottom line for me I am not a tree hugging hippie but I am a fuel conscience driver who would rather spend money on my family than on fuel.

 

Re: The Great Divide: Prius lovers are steadfast, but the ha

Nope, the cost of diesel will be going *way* up, not just up.

Currently, sulphur in diesel is around 250 ppm. It's going to dramatically increase production costs to get the sulphur down to European limits of <15 ppm.

Feedstocks make a big difference too. I'm sure you've heard of "sweet" crude. This is crude oil with naturally low levels of sulphur and H2S (Hydrogen Sulphide). Sweet crude is priced higher than the other stuff.

Which is "sour" crude, a basestock high in sulphur and H2S. Guess what most of the oil from the mideast is? That's right, sour crude.

If sulphur levels are *really* high, diesel engines will experience rapid oxidation of the lube oil, rapid TBN depletion, excessive Ring Land deposits on the pistons, and Crown Land deposits.

To partially minimize this problem, injector timing (Rotary mechanical or electronic pulsewidth) can be set back. This tends to reduce torque and HP.

With diesel or gasolene motors, the use of sour crude and failure to remove the trace sulphur can really bugger up emissions equipment.

Nope, you're not a hippie, just a pragmatic guy who has more important things to worry about.

 

Re: The Great Divide: Prius lovers are steadfast, but the ha

Hilarious!
I just read the the autoweek report and all six pages of this forums fairly weak, largely self-concious responses to it and I have news for many of you. But that will be further into my diatribe below.

First a little about my sometimes esoteric auto ownership through the years. I've owned 23 cars in my life, notably an AC Cobra ( 550 hp and eight MPG! ) a 1981 VW Rabbit pickup that got a real 45-55 MPG, that's in 1981 folks; a Land Rover Discovery that got a pathetic, even tragic 12 MPG, a Smart car that is still in my garage and the worst car I have ever owned! Several Porsches, a Duece and half ( google this one if you want to see a truely fantastic vehicle to own ) and a 1917 Model T.

Currently I pilot a BMW 535d, yes a Diesel; a car Americans will never have the pleasure of even riding in due to irrational America's dislike for all things diesel. I am an American currently living in Europe, by-the-way.

This quiet, powerful and fast automobile accelerates to 60 in the 6 second range and I can squeeze 48 MPG out of it on the hyw. I drive a suburban route to work and get an average 40-42 MPG with some rush hour stop and go, in the London area.

Yes, I am an auto enthusiast and enjoy driving powerful, well handling cars. I have always wanted to own a true, Hybrid-Electric and I am also a Prius owner wanna-be,,,,,, maybe. I say maybe because the Prius does seem to disappoint a bit.

You can't plug it in and must generate power for the battery back with what must the least efficient way possible, a small, gas internal comustion engine ( aside from a small amount from regen-braking ). But at least you can drive some distance on electric alone.

Additionally, some reports say the Prius handles a bit like a boat. Sure it's fun to drive efficiently and try for high mileage, I do that all the time in my 535d, but if it's annoying in a wallowing, tire squealing during cornering kind of way, I'll buy an Audi A2 TDI with the real possibility of averaging 60 MPG and wait for Toyota's next hybrid release.

Many of you on this forum report low 40's in Prius, that is disappointing. Sure, no one really expects EPA rated MPG, but going from a claimed combined 55 to a real world low 40's is understandably irritating some of you. Especially if you realize I got better than that 25 years ago in my VW Rabbit, though admittedly a very slow journey with just 50 hp on tap.

About half of you claimed not to be auto enthusiast. Got news for you, you actively registered onto an auto entusiast web site and took the time to read and write in it, YOU ARE AUTO ENTHUSIASTS. Just because you drive fairly fuel efficient, poor handling (?) cars, doesn't immunize you from the disorder. We here are all enthusiast by definition, accept it, embrace it.

Many of you seem to see VW and Honda as the enemies. That's fine, but your energies would better serve you praising Toyota for taking the chance, and hammering them for taking it half way.

Maybe Toyota has the guts to take that next step ( I don't see GM/Ford/Chysler sepping up) and build a truly great Hybrid-Electric. With your energies focused there, as mine are, perhaps they would do the following:
Do the chassis work needed to get reasonable handling characteristics and add the missing element called driver pleasure. Increase the battery pack capacity to enable 20-30 mile, pure electric travel. Utilize a decent engine, i.e. diesel, for truely spectacular MPG under mixed hybrid opertion. Lastly, give it a power plug so I can use the green power I pay extra for at home!!

Also, get educated on modern diesel technology. Particulate filters and super efficiency have cleaned them up. Ford/PSA ( of all companies ) build spectacular, smooth, powerful and clean diesels for Citroen and Peugeot. Audi's A2 TDI is the most fuel efficient internal combustion engine commercially available. Honda's new diesel is so clean it doesn't need a particulate filter and they are all rated as super low emmisions engines.

Finally, a 2005 VW Passat 2.0 TDI can easily obtain Prius like 40's and even 50ish MPG and with 0-60 times in the 9 second range, spank a Prius in the performance arena. Sorry America, you may not see one of these either.

My point? If some of you on this forum feel foolish concerning your Prius purchase; first, get you facts correct, second, hound Toyota to go that extra step and third, feel great about your purchase, you are early adopters in waht will certainly be the future!

Best regards,
David

 

David-
If only you owned one, you could have an informed opinion on the matter. I doubt that you would keep the one you have now. CR ranks it as the number one car in customer satisfaction. 94% of buyers said they would buy the same vehicle again. 94% is a huge number for a question like that.

I regularly get high 50s. Three of my last four tanks were at 58 miles per gallon. All four tanks were at around 650 miles for 11-12 gallons of gas. I thoroughly enjoy the Prius.

The handling is just fine. It has a little roll which is partially the tires and will only squeal the tires in a turn if you really over commit. The VSC is quite effective. I don't believe that you can build this vehicle to handle like a BMW. I personally wouldn't want to commute in a car that stiff. The complaints I have are few and minor and are never addressed by car reviews.

Yes, there are some really nice diesels in europe.

A plug-in hybrid is a mistake in my opinion. I'll wait for full electric before I'll bother to plug in at night.

 

If by "Hype" you mean goverment mandated EPA tests, I guess you should write the EPA. Other than where Toyota publishes EPA results, such as the window sticker, I don't see them "hyping" the 60MPG city or 55 overall. In fact, they usually state you will get lesser mileage, will vary,EPA tests don't reflect real world, etc, I think the website even lists a number in the 40s.

By hype, do you think they cheated on the test? THAT would be something. Have you read how the tests work? The city portion is ideal for the Prius to use electic yet easily recharge its battery and shut itself off in between. I don't see the 51MPG highway as difficult to obtain at all, especially if you simulate the test conditions of warm engine, few stops, 55MPH, no A/C, comfortable ambient temp. I get 50MPG nonstop highway easily and I certainly don't drive 55 with no A/C! If you thought your driving conditions matched the EPA's, I won't call you a fool, you can decide on your own what to call yourself.

Again, this is a PRIUS forum and the people who come here FOR the PRIUS. I love my car and wouldn't have purchased it otherwise. There is constructive criticism, even about the handling and other "performance" characteristics, all over the board. Can you imagine if I went to, I do not know, a porsche forum and said the car was boring, disappointing in performance, and didn't live up to the hype? Even if that was true FOR ME, I doubt I'd seem very objective, even if I owned one. Your first post "Was wondering when you guys would jump all over this story." If we agreed with the story we wouldn't be wasting our time at this forum.

David, I do consider myself an enthusiast, but I knew popsrcr meant it in a different sense, as my interests are no doubt different than his. I like tech, not race car performance. Diesels in this country are dirty because our fuel is still high sulfur (see above) unlike Europe's. Once that changes, maybe they will be here more, maybe both gas & diesel will be up to Europe prices at that point, who knows. Isn't diesel cheaper there because the taxes are different than gasoline? The Passat you mentioned is the one I mentioned earlier with EPA 27/38/31MPG. While SOME might get better than EPA with careful driving, SOME Prius owners get better than 55MPG (see Ray above). Plus 31 to 50MPG is a big difference, the EPA tests already use very careful driving, so I have a hard time believing that. You need to be a careful driver to get EPA mileage or better. Diesel autos can't be sold in parts of USA and VW has to limit how many they sell or pay a fine. You pay a hefty premium to get one over a gas VW, they're scarce and not cheap. For now, they're not ready for mass market prime time.

 

Re: The Great Divide: Prius lovers are steadfast, but the ha

Hi Ray,

Thanks for your response to my post.

You are right, I need to at least drive one, much less own one, to get an informed opinion. As you may notice, the only opinion I espouse are those I learned from Prius owners on this forum. I do hope to get down to the local Toyota dealer soon and spin a wheel soon.

94% approval rating is spectacularly high by any measure. Though you will have to understand my trepidation at the value of these number if the forum members are anything to go by. For example, quite a few of them claim to "not like to drive", considering their Prius as a box with wheels to get them from A - B, others simply state they are not car enthusiasts. I am hesitant to accept a recommendation with such high numbers of none drivers. I will have to drive one myself.

Many cars handle as well as my 535d, i.e. Lotus Exige, Nissan 350z, even Toyota's Supra may handle better from a pure performance point of view. It just takes engineering effort, Toyota can at least take the Prius up a notch and match other cars in it's price/class.

As for ride comfort, with the Prius relatively short wheelbase, low ride height and corresponding low suspension travel I'll bet my 535 smooths out a speed bump in a whole other league in comparison. In fact, the BMW rides better than any car I have ever driven aside from my last car, an E-class Benz. But as you say, I need to get behind the wheel of a Prius to get an informed view on this as well.

Finally, please get with me and help drive Toyota to give it a plug!! Sure it should still charge with the inefficient petrol motor when needed, but the option to drive to work and back under pure electric would be fantastic, don't you think?

You could still take longer trips without the worry of running out of electric power, but at least have the option to run short trips and never run the petrol engine. This would give Prius owners a whole new goal, that is, virtually never stop at a gas station! At the same time, never worry about running out of electric power and becoming stranded somewhere looking for a power outlet and hanging around for 6-8 hours while it charges. How fantastic would that be?

The Prius needs a plug, it deserves a plug!

Regards,
David

 

I guess by hype I meant all the people on this forum saying they get 55mpg. And all the press about that mileage. And the toyota PR machine I agree EPA estimates suck, just guess I hoped for more.
In regards to the story..everyone has taken pains to point out how all the car mags are wrong, they don't get it, those guys aren't interested in a Prius, etc. Why then such the ire? They DO know what they're talking about as its their opinion.
In summary (yeah right), I know the majority disagree with the article, but everyone seems to take it as a personal attack. It isn't. Its just a car and its just some car geeks opinions.
And, I will state again. I like the Prius fine. In fact I expected to hate it, but I don't. I just don't choose it as my car.

And, thanks for the discussion. I like to discuss and don't mean to antagonize, but I know I will sometimes as I'm that 0-60 guy...

Cheers.

 

Comparing apples and oranges.

The Prius isn't just about fuel economy. It is also about low emissions.

If you're going to compare the Prius mileage to diesels with comparable mileage, let's throw in emissions.

http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/E-TOYOTA-Prius-05.htm

I'm in California. Our air pollution score is 9.5 and greenhouse gas score is 10 with mileage 60/51. Our mileage is just as good as the Prii sold in other states so it doesn't look like anything done to the car to make it cleaner is effecting its mileage or efficiency.

The closest in numbers is the Honda Insight. Only it only seats two and is smaller. It scores 9/10 with mileage 57/56.

The Honda Accord (better size comparison) isn't even close to the Prius.

http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/E-HONDA-I...-Insight-05.htm

The Camry is just as bad.

http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/E-TOYOTA-Camry-05.htm

And for fun: BMW 545:

http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/E-BMW-545i-05.htm

And you can look up diesel cars too. For both mileage and emissions.

Feel free to look up any car. Curiously enough you won't find anything on the Hummer. Not for three years. Hmmmmm.

 

Re: The Great Divide: Prius lovers are steadfast, but the ha

Hello gschoen,

I'll assume the first 2/3 of you post is directed at someone else ragg'in on the EPA rating of 60 MPG and not me as I only quoted Prius owners dissapointment in the actual numbers, from this forum.

To your comments concerning Europe Diesel fuel and your interest in technology. I, like you, am interested in the technology and have research electric cars ad nauseam, though I am also interested in race car performance. I don't think anyone expects race car performance from the Prius, but should expect an enjoyable driving expereince and Toyota should aspire to best in class ride and handling. Again, I haven't driven one, but will shortly and do not want to be disappointed by a Smart Car level drive.

As for Passat, strangely the European version is rated at 61 MPG Hyw and 48 combined with over 600 mile range. http://www.wintonsworld.com/cars/a-cars-20...assat-2005.html

Could it be that the US gets a dog version, with the true performer only available over here? Imperial vers US gallon accounts for some of this disparity (imperial X 1.2).

Diesel is about 20 cents US more than petrol in England, pray you don't someday pay what we do for the stuff, about $6.50 a gallon!

By-the-way, I rented a Passat for a weekend trip before I bought the 535d and got 56 MPG on a 300 mile trip. It's real.

Anyway, hoping drive/buy a Prius in the near future!

 

Re: The Great Divide: Prius lovers are steadfast, but the ha

Yawn... Just another schlock "journalist" trying to stir the pond to create some controversy and boost readership by means of emotions over intelligent debate.

Shrug... They can say whatever they want, there's not a car around that I'd trade my Prius for

Dave

 

I'd trade it for David's car. Then I'd sell his car and buy two Prius.

David- The Prius gets better than the EPA numbers unless your driving conditions lower the numbers for any of the reasons scattered throughout this forum. Any other car would do the same and trust me, I have checked with lots of TDI drivers. When I ask them what they get for mileage they say something like 48 MPG on the highway. When I ask them what they get in everyday driving, they tell me, Oh that was just once on a trip, we usually get around 38 MPG. I then tell them, that's great and thanks for doing your part.

I only tease people with my mileage when they commute in an oversized SUV that gets 15 MPG or less. I wish that I had switched sooner. It's not a nice thing to do but neither is burning up our grandkids oil like there's no end to it.

 

Re: Comparing apples and oranges.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva\";p=\"84845)</div>

http://www.driveclean.ca.gov/en/gv/vsearch...ehicletypeid=16

And here's a list of cars that are as clean as the Prius...

There's quite a few of them!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26\";p=\"84944)</div>

I'm not sure how you draw that conclusion.

Yes, all those cars are PZEV, which means they meet SULEV Emissions requirements and have Zero Evaporative emissions.

But, the SULEV is just the MINIMUM standard they meet.

Some of them, like the Prius, exceed the standard by a fair amount.

So, your logic is like taking all cars that get 25+ MPG Highway and saying their mileage is as good as the Prius because they're all in the same group as the Prius.

Those cars may or may not be 'as clean as' the Prius, but the fact that they're on that list proves nothing.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tempus\";p=\"84950)</div>

I'm just saying that they all meet PZEV. I'm fine with admitting that there are other cars that are as clean as my Prius, but then, I guess I don't have to compensate for other shortcomings.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26\";p=\"84944)</div>

That's incorrect. The prius has an AT-PZEV rating. Those vehicles have the more polluting PZEV rating.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kidtwist\";p=\"84953)</div>

There is no difference between AT-PZEV and PZEV in terms of emissions. They both meet the same standards.

http://hybridcars.about.com/od/glossaryofh...rm/g/atpzev.htm
http://hybridcars.about.com/od/glossaryofh...term/g/pzev.htm

 

You are correct. They both meet the same MINIMUM standards, as I said.

That says absolutely nothing about the actual emissions of the car, except that they do not exceed that standard.

They also all exceed the ULEV and LEV standards, which, again, by itself says nothing about the comparative emissions of the vehicles.

Lets try this again.

You have two cars. One gets 30 MPG and one gets 60 MPG.

They both are listed on a government web site as "Fuel Efficient Cars that get greater than 25 MPG"

Would you then say they have the 'same' mileage?

That's what you're saying when you equate all SULEV cars. Some are much cleaner than others, even though they are all SULEV.

 

Re: The Great Divide: Prius lovers are steadfast, but the ha

Must be exceeding the speed limit......so poor gas mileage.

Drove approx 170K. Cruise set at 100K (60 MPH) Early morning...light wind. Super highway. Tank filled before leaving. On arriving home readout showed 4.2 litres per 100K, or 65 miles to a gallon, Canadian that is. Believe the us gal = 4/5 of the Cdn. Nop complaints here.

 

Re: The Great Divide: Prius lovers are steadfast, but the ha

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(speedracer1\";p=\"84807)</div>

David:

I completely agree on your discussion of diesel technology. Please re-read my post - which is directly above yours - on the issues of diesel fuel sold in America.

Due primarily to the use of "sour" crude basestocks, diesel fuel refined here can have up to 50 times the sulphur content of legal maximum EU diesel fuel: +250 ppm and higher.

As I stated, with sulphur levels that high, unless you dramatically detune a diesel motor by playing with the injection timing, you will quickly experience problems.

As an example, several years ago VW sponsored a cross-country trip in a few VW Lupo 3L's. They had to have a chase truck with diesel fuel taken directly from Europe, for if they would have tried to refuel the Lupo 3L at a typical truckstop here, it would have killed it.

The trucking industry here has expressed concern that lowering the sulphur levels may decrease the lubricity of the diesel fuel, and cause premature failure of injection components. That is mostly hogwash, especially with modern electronic unit injection. Maybe a mechanical rotary unit more than 25 years old *may* experience more wear.

As far as the issue of EPA fuel economy, remember that fuel economy in Canada and the EU is rated in L/100km, with conversion to Imperial gallons. There are 4.54 litres per Imperial gallon and 3.78 litres per U.S. gallon.

Using the VW Lupo 3L as an example, it's rated at 3L/100km or 94 MPG Imperial gallon. Converted to U.S. gallons, you get "only" 78 MPG.

Using my 2004 Prius as an example, the U.S. EPA rates it 60 MPG city and 51 MPG highway. A similar fuel economy test is run here in Canada, but converted to Imperial gallons the Prius is rated 71 MPG city and 67 MPG highway.

When Consumer Reports ran their meticulous testing on the Prius and other family cars in their May 2004 issue, they got "real world" 35 MPG city and 51 MPG highway. A Chevy Malibu got 16 city and 38 highway. The Dodge Stratus 4 cylinder got 14 city and 32 highway.

I've been to Europe a few times and I agree that we need more car choices here. I see nothing wrong with a VW Lupo 3L, or any of the choices you mentioned.

The issue of diesel emissions is tricky as a diesel motor will naturally have much higher PM10 (Particulate Matter 10 micron absolute) emissions while having much lower HC, CO, and CO2 emissions. With proper diesel fuel blending and post-treatment, a diesel motor can *approach* the PM10 of a gasolene motor.

Emission ratings in the EU allow higher PM10 emissions for diesel motors than for gasolene motors, which isn't quite a fair playing field. Although modern small electronic diesel injection motors have become much cleaner than they used to be, they still compare poorly to gasolene motors wrt particulates.

The priority may be different too: are you more concerned about CO2 emissions or more concerned about PM10 emissions? If you believe in "global warming" than obviously you're more concerned about CO2 emissions, and diesel motors are naturally much better than gasolene motors in this regard.

However, in a dense urban area with a high number of vehicles, you had better be concerned about PM10 emissions. Folks with asthma especially will experience many problems due to PM10. I'm sure you've seen that jet of black smoke shoot from the stack of a diesel truck, that's a mixture of fine particulates that you can't see (PM10 and smaller) and heavy particulates that quickly settle. With diesel cars, it's what you can't see that causes the damage.

The reason you can't buy a VW TDI in CA is due to the fact that CA doesn't give a diesel motor a "break" in emissions testing. With both motors expected to meet the same standards, the TDI can't.

I like Honda cars and would buy one without reservations. The only issue I had with Honda cars in the past was servicing, as the oil filter is up against the firewall and is a PITA to reach. On the Prius you reach under the front chin spoiler and unscrew the oil filter, much easier.

VW cars overall appear to be very well thought out for drivers, and in many respects the ride quality over frost heaves and potholes is better than the Prius. However, there are many reliability issues with VW cars sold here. Perhaps the VW cars assembled in Europe are trouble-free, the ones here are considered mostly unreliable.