Wasted street lighting...

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by Celtic Blue, Mar 27, 2009.

  1. blamy

    blamy Member

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    I wonder if LED streetlights would be better especially for the Astronomy crowd. I would think they would use less resources also????
     
  2. dogfriend

    dogfriend Human - Animal Hybrid

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  3. Celtic Blue

    Celtic Blue New Member

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    I don't see what difference LED's would make astronomy wise if they put out the same lumens. Now, having them shielded for full cut off is of course important. They should be somewhat more energy efficient but that doesn't really help anyone who wants to look at the night sky.

    Some light pollution filters can be used at the scope to darken the background, but that doesn't change one's naked eye view of anything. And the filters also eliminate some of the light you want. They work best on Low Pressure Sodium lights, less so on High Pressure Sodium and even less so on the Mercury vapor lamps.

    Line filters work well at the eyepiece on specific emission nebula, but you lose much of the rest (e.g. stars become much dimmer) except the nebula itself. Typical line filters are O-III and H-Beta. The O-III is by far the most useful, especially when using my 20" f/5 to look for star forming regions in other galaxies, and for picking out planetary nebula.

    There is no substitute for a dark sky. Security lights are a travesty in the countryside (as are most of those elsewhere.)
     
  4. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    Previous lights are omnidirectional before any reflectors or shields are applied, so mindless applications put nearly half their lumens directly into the sky.

    LEDs are inherently directional, so most mindless applications will put most of their lumens on the ground and comparatively few directly into the sky. While the ground will still reflect the same fraction up into the sky, that portion is considerably smaller than what bad old lights put directly upwards.

    The directionality will also reduce glare, compared to the common mindless applications (not the good ergonomic ones), hopefully allowing folks to get by with lower intensity on the ground.
     
  5. Celtic Blue

    Celtic Blue New Member

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    They finally had an opportunity to fix the four light sensors this past week (folks had been out and the weather was windy with ice/snow storms.) So I'll take credit for ~2,600 kwh reduction for the year--which is about how long at least one of them had been running continuously.
     
  6. EZW1

    EZW1 Active Member

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    I'll go one better.... How about cutting the number of street lights in half? or by a third? It seems to me there are way too many lights on the road and a far fewer of them would do the job just as well and obvously burn less electricity.
     
  7. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    More well-designed ergonomic lights (narrow lighting cones) with much lower power per light could do even better on both counts.
     
  8. tripp

    tripp Which it's a 'ybrid, ain't it?

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    That's excellent. We just had our best month in 3 years... 251 kWh for the month of March. The cool part is that last March saw very similar Avg OAT and we shaved 116kWh and 15 Therms off of last year. It's a amazing what a new fridge and a programmable thermostat will do (and a low flow shower head and R11 water heater blanket).
     
  9. Betelgeuse

    Betelgeuse Active Member

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    I find it ironic that you had a better experience observing on Mauna Kea that I did. I went there a few months back to observe on Keck, and we observed from the observing station at Keck Headquarters (in Waimea). It rained in Waimea the whole time we were there, even though it was crystal clear up on the top of the mountain. I suppose I prefer it that way instead of the other way around, but I was slightly grumpy that I didn't get to see these incredible skies that I've always heard about there. I guess I'll just have to go there on vacation.

    That said, observing from the base station totally makes sense. The elevation at the summit (14K feet) plus sleep deprivation makes you really stupid if you're not used to it.
     
  10. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

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    How about turning ALL the street lights off? What do the streets need light for?

    Seriously,, if we all got a little less paranoid we wouldn't need all this wasteful light!

    Icarus
     
  11. Celtic Blue

    Celtic Blue New Member

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    You are preaching to the choir. The only ones I really have use for are ones that illuminate street corners/business drives.

    Unfortunately, such things have to be taken in baby steps. If we can educate folks and regulate to get full cut off fixtures standard, then folks will be weaned away from seeing the actual lit bulbs. That would be a key step in convincing folks to use less lighting in general.

    A major part of the problem in many areas, particularly rural is the utilities and insecurity lights. Not only do they encourage the damned things in areas where they aren't needed, they refuse to allow actual switches (fought that battle) on insecurity lights. So when I want to observe on some family property I have to "make the bulbs inoperable"--and I ain't shimmying up a pole to do it gently...although I did do that once at a campground along the Buffalo National River where the pole was short enough.
     
  12. Celtic Blue

    Celtic Blue New Member

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    I was expecting this update from you. ;) I'm envious of that number, nice work. I've got too much fixed overhead to do that at present...some silly vampire loads like the garage door openers sucking up 6 kwh/month, several old electronics that can't be effectively power stripped costing me 8 kwh/month excess, and a Radon mitigation blower using 40 kwh/month. Then there is the security system and UPS's that are adding another 19 kwh/month.

    I'm of course paying the price of the extra square footage and a few selfish amenities like a large fridge, small chest freezer, and wine cellar. (Tack on an extra 37 kwh/month for those last two combined.) Then there is the blasted HVAC air handler--what a pig it is. And I'm still using the dishwasher, plus the sani-rinse cycle (heats the water to 150...but I airdry so the higher temp does help in this regard.) I also still use the dryer for most clothes.

    I was hoping to close in on the 400's this past monthly period for electric, but we got three weeks of below average temps forcing the old 1 hp blower to run more, adding 50 kwh more than anticipated. Haven't gotten the statement yet so I don't know what day the meter was read, but it will likely come in around 540 kwh for 31 days. I've got a couple of small partial month load reductions that will begin to fully show up in April.

    For perspective, the previous owner used over 1100 kwh in this same period last year and somehow used 1400 kwh the year before (probably a long billing cycle, but still...it was unusually warm that month so they might have actually run the AC a few days. :rolleyes:) In much smaller homes with decent CFL conversion I was using about 700 kwh/month, so I'm reducing my own use despite the radon system and some additional refrigeration appliances.

    How many therms did you use for the month? What flow rate on the shower head?

    I've been a bit disappointed in my gas use for the winter, but it still comes in ~10% below the previous owner's for the same OAT. Keep in mind that I've cut out enough electrical usage that I should have used ~100 therms more than them over the season just to make up for lost electrical heat gain. Plus, during some of the coldest weather I was still doing various sealing/insulating projects, fixing a problem with the thermostat location, figuring out how to balance the system...and I was adjusting to my first real winter in nearly two decades.

    The big remaining energy efficiency project for me is updating the HVAC with a new variable speed air handler, two stage 95% furnace, sealed combustion, and debottlenecked evaporator coil. Should save me about 75 kwh/month average on blower operation and about 150 therms/year in gas.
     
  13. rpatterman

    rpatterman Thinking Progressive

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    I go on a private Grand Canyon trip every other year.

    The big attraction (other than rowing incredible whitewater) is 21 days without electricity, phones, emails or recorded music. The night sky that far from civilization is incredible.

    It always amazes me that as soon as it gets dark, some people start turning on lights, as if there was something wrong with enjoying the dark. They are the same ones that sleep in a tent in perfect weather, I guess there is something wrong with being outside in the dark.
    I usually camp 1/8 mile away from the group just so I can have true dark! Without artificial light or clocks it is real easy to adjust to the sun's schedule, get up when it gets light and go to sleep when it gets dark.

    On one trip, someone showed up with a ghetto blaster and when they turned it on the first night, I had to explain that if it was ever turned on again, it would end up in the river.

    Our addiction to electricity and artificial light is amazing!
     
  14. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    motion detection lighting could not be done with LPS since they simply dont turn on and off like that so that would more of a waste. for the wattage, its tough to beat their light output..

    as far as houses being a ¼ mile apart, heck that is nothing. i live in "affordable" housing where its zoned 10 houses per acre. you have it made