GM bailout rant

First, I think the $25B for green tech has not been released to the companies due to gov't-driven complications aka red tape.

Second, I also thought Toyota developed the Prius drive system under Japan government funding.

Third, industrial development of technology under government funding is common globally, perhaps most notably in the EU. Why? Because commercial technology development is strategically valuable.

I thought Toyota sold the first Prius' at a per-unit loss, and was "made well" by Japanese government yen, starting at least 10 years ago. I'd be glad to be shown as wrong.

Road Fan

 

So on Friday, GW Bush guarantees loans to buy time:
Automaker Bailout Is Just Buying Time - Seeking Alpha

So on Sunday, <SLAP> GM announces their latest:
2010 Chevy Equinox: A New Look For Detroit

Two days later, GM announces their competition for the non-hybrid, Venza, Toyota's latest, cross-over, gas-only SUV. This ranks right up there with flying jets to DC to ask for bailout money. Instead of waiting to the Detroit Auto Show, these GM executives are totally clueless about timing and obviously tone deaf!

Now if Toyota announces a hybrid version of the Venza, it is made in the same factory as the Camry hybrid, we can call it 'game set match.'

Bob Wilson

 

GM just got a $4 B. loan for December and more to follow. So two days later, GM announces another cross-over SUV. All you have to do is drive by dealer car lots and look at the unsold inventory to realize what a mistake this is.

Granted, GM made a decision to produce this SUV probably a year ago. But to follow-up their loan request with this obviously wrong vehicle at the wrong time, that was foolish. Look at the alternative of bringing it out at the Detroit Auto Show.

At the show, this vehicle fits within the pool of ordinary vehicle announcements. But having this announcement two days after taking a government loan is pretty much "business as usual." Then look at the technical specifications.

The Equinox is pretty much identical to a Venza and both are inferior to the Ford Escape hybrid. This is not the two-mode hybrid in a middle sized vehicle. This is just more of the same old product designs that show GM still doesn't get it.

Bob Wilson

 

I simply don't understand your philosophy that the only "good" improvements in fuel economy are those that come from hybrids.

The 2010 Equinox is a big step in the right direction. It is rated at 21/26/30 mpg.

That compares to the 2009 Equinox at 17/20/24. GM improved the fuel economy of the Equinox by 25% and still you complain.

That is better than Toyota or Honda has done:

Toyota RAV4 ----- 22/24/28
Toyota Venza ---- 19/22/26
Honda CR-V ------ 20/23/27


If you want a mid-size GM Hybrid you can buy a 2010 Saturn Vue hybrid in two different flavors:

Mild ------- 25/28/32 mpg
2-Mode --- 28/30/31 mpg

BTW the 2-Mode goes 0-60 in 7.5 seconds and is a "performance" hybrid like the Highlander and Lexus hybrids from Toyota.

The new Equinox has nothing to do with the $4 billion loan "PROMISED" by the federal government. It also has nothing to do with the $25 Billion in loans "PROMISED" from the energy bill for improvements in fuel economy. The Detroit 3 haven't seen a dime of the $25 billion in loans because the Bush Administration turned down their applications.

U.S. Department of Energy shoots down $16B in Detroit requests - MotorAuthority - Car news, reviews, spy shots

What the 2010 Equinox represents is GM deciding that their customers might like to get 25% better fuel economy for minimal extra cost. GM used direct-injection technology to achieve this; a technology that they lead the industry in. It also represents GM's new focus on car-based cross-overs instead of truck-based SUV's.

Image the reduction in gasoline use if GM could convince the average soccer-mom to give up her Trailblazer for a 15% smaller Equinox that gets an extra 10 mpg in combined driving.

 

Most PC'ers have an emotional connection to hybrids and Toyota and it is hard to accept facts tht don't reinforce that connection.

 

Not me, Malorn. I just have a connection to SULEV+, 60 mpg+ vehicles.

Anything from GM I should be aware of ?

 

I would suggest that many of us also have a financial connection too; the
$$ we save regardless of the price of gas... makes us happy, a nice
emotion that.

And what? This is surprising? Have we forgotten that this is PRIUS Chat,
and not Chry/For/GeMo Chat?

Malorn,

One question: Why is is that we have to hunt all over the web to get info
on the new Detroit 3 offerings when you, a vocal Detroit proponent and
resident appologist are right here?

Why are you still not bringing info here -- web addresses would be fine --
to start winning the sceptics such as:
* Detroit 3 vehicles in the pipeline,
* Strategies Detroit 3 will use to overcome the perception of poor quality
* Really inovative loan/lease plans
* Other really neat stuff

I am still hoping that you become a value added asset in educating us.

But, as you are apparently bounden to the Detroit Way, my hopes, like
their inventory, need to be heavily discounted.

 

The Toyota stock holders???

 

If by "most" you mean 50.1% or above then you may be right, maybe. However, there are "many" here (myself included) who are not emotionally connected to Toyota or even hybrids.

For me, hybrids are only a bridge technology to help bring us closer to the goal of freedom from fossil fuel. It's the most practical and affordable option for many of us right now. But that doesn't mean it's the best.

As for Toyota, they'll need to compete for my next purchase just like all the others. We're saving for that elusive hybrid minivan. The first automaker to market with one will most likely get my money.

 

The vast majority of people who benefit from toyota's success are Japanese including stockholders. I am telling you there is a coming backlash against imports of all flavors.

 

Backlash maybe, but against the companies taht compete by proxy -- welfare

 

Are you telling me that Toyota has not received any support over the years from the Japanese governmetn? How about Hyundai and the Korean government?

 

21/../29 mpg - Toyota Venza
34/32/31 mpg - Ford Escape hybrid

IMHO, drop the Equinox and Venza and get a Ford Escape hybrid. The problem is solved.

Bob Wilson

 

I am telling you that GM's base support had been in the midwest and southern US, but about 2/3rds of polled southerners opposed GM welfare.

 

bob,
YOu must have got your numbers from toyota here is the EPA numbers 19/26. I am amazed that toyota would come out with a vehicle like that now, shows you where their thinking was not very long ago.

 

I see where you're getting 21/29 mpg. That is for the 4 cylinder which isn't on fueleconomy.gov yet.

So in you opinion, $30K is the entry level for a mid-size crossover SUV? If you don't have the extra $6K for the hybrid, no SUV for you!

I don't see a problem to begin with. Different people will buy different vehicles. It is important that all vehicle improve fuel economy and 25% is a great improvement for a model change.

I also think that an extra $6K for the hybrid is a hard sell with gas back to $1.60. Yes, gasoline prices will go up but GM needs something they can make money on NOW. As a future shareholder in the company I demand it.

 

I saw the Venza at the Georgetown plant tour Oct. 13. I went to the plant tour to see them building Camry hybrids. I remember being surprised to see something I had no interest in being made at the same plant while gas was still over $3/gal.

Now if they stuffed a Camry hybrid drive train into the Venza, it might make a nice, mid-sized, cross-over, SUV ... something to compete with the Ford Escape hybrid. That could fill in for the missing hybrid minivan.

But don't think even for a minute that I have any interest in the Venza as a future family vehicle.

Bob Wilson

 

Piss on the big 3, the last i heard GM wanted billions more tax payer dollars, in the same breath they informed us in return they would be getting rid of some 47000 more workers and shutting down 5 more U.S. Plants.
I say sink or float, pack up, get on your jumbo jet, fly to one of those countrie you exported U.S. jobs to and ask them for money. Seriously they cant have many more than 5 plants left in the U.S. after NAFTA anyway.
"PISS ON UM"

 

Some of you just don't get it. Every American manufacturing company is under assault. American industries are systematically targeted and then destroyed by foreign companies with the support and in most cases while being subsidized by foreign governments. You dumb nice person(5 plants?) GM, Ford and Chrysler have closed or will close more than 100 plants in the US over the last 5 years. Those plants and jobs are not gone, they are just now in japan, korea, and germany. The auto industry is just the most visible industry under assault, think of the millions of textile, electronics, furniture, etc jobs that now reside in China etc. We all have a decision to make, for our future and the future of our children and grand children.

Do you drive your Prius(100% Japanese content) to Wal-Mart and buy a bunch of chinese crap, go home and watch your japanese electronics, and then end your night on your chinese/japanese computer and wonder why the US economy is going down the tubes?