On my trip back from CA on I-10 last night (5/30/2005) passing through Desert Center (half way between Indio and Blythe), I was passed by a Jetta Wagon TDI with stickers and logos on the back stating: "Getting 50mpg on soybean oil", Bio-diesel, and other logos and phrases. He slowed down briefly, and gave me a peace sign out of his sunroof. I returned w/ a thumbs up as I looked down and saw my consumption meter sitting at 50-55mpg myself I couldn't resist the snide remark to my wife though of "Cool, but I still pollute less " Not the first time I'd seen one on the road, but it was the first one I'd seen with Arizona plates. Ironically, he didn't carry AFV plates, I'd think bio-diesel would count as an alternative fuel.
Wanted to point out that a biodiesel Jetta is actually FAR LESS polluting than your Prius. Not only that, but if you spill biodiesel into the water, ocean, ground, etc. it will not be a toxic hazard like if you were to spill gas. Jetta @ 40mpg on bio-d: This car uses the equivalent of 75 gallons of gasoline each year. This means it produces 1455 pounds of CO2 annually. You can neutralize your 2008 carbon emissions by purchasing a DriveNeutral certification for $12 . Prius @ 44 mpg on gasoline: This car uses the equivalent of 272 gallons of gasoline each year. This means it produces 5276 pounds of CO2 annually. You can neutralize your 2008 carbon emissions by purchasing a DriveNeutral certification for $30 . Try it yourself here: google: drive neutral I have an F-250 GIANT Truck and on bio-d it's almost twice as clean as a Prius. Just wanted to make sure people are clear on how clean biodiesel is -- it's a great fuel. Now if we could only get a diesel prius...
JONO2 thats only c02 but a bio diesel is still more polluting than a petrol car NOx etc! its better to drive ethanol then! instead off bio diesel edit : sorry pats . did not realize its a ......
The problem of bio diesel or any "bio" fuel is, that if used on a grander scale around the world, it would basically eat away food from people, especially from those in poor countries. So my opinion is, that bio fuels are world famine generators. Instead of producing food for poor people, production is moved towards filling rich people fuel tanks, who are willing to pay more, especially when oil prices sky rocket. We know what real alternative to oil is, and this thing was named electricity long time ago.
Jon02, FWD brings up some good points. With every comparison, there are high points and low points on each side. This, of course, allows each side to pick and choose their comparison points and rally behind those while intentionally ignoring the less-than-favorable points. And trust me, we have discussed the bio-diesel topic numerous times here. I can't think that there are many people adversely opposed to bio-diesel, especially when it helps to curb our addiction to petroleum. So in the interest of a well-rounded discussion, please provide more comparison points showing that your F-250 giant is almost twice as clean as the Prius. And in return, other members will provide their own data points along with sources and we will have an intelligent, well-rounded discussion.
Hmmm, this post does make me wonder about the less source of carbon footprint. I'm burning 100% biodiesel (B100) for my boiler to provided my heating needs (although my hot water is provided by solar). This biodiesel was not taken from the foodchain but has been recycled from previously used restaurant cooking oil. Now since my electricity is from 100% renewable resources (mainly wind and hydro with limited solar), might it be less of a carbon print for also providing my heat through electricity? I generally think not as the biodiesel is also providing a means for waste reduction but perhaps this is not taken into account?
I agree with you regarding "recycling" waste into bio fuels. Instead of being wasted they can be used up to provide energy. But there is probably a limit how much energy can be recycled in such a way. But I disagree with people and countries which promote production of bio fuels on larger scale even by using tax payers money. As latter results in agricultural production being moved from food to bio fuels.
I'm not trying to troll, just wanted to make sure people are accurately informed on alternate fuels. About the F-250 on biodiesel being cleaner than a Prius: F-250 @ 20 mpg on bio-d: This car uses the equivalent of 150 gallons of gasoline each year. This means it produces 2910 pounds of CO2 annually. You can neutralize your 2008 carbon emissions by purchasing a DriveNeutral certification for $18 . Prius @ 42 mpg on gasonline: This car uses the equivalent of 285 gallons of gasoline each year. This means it produces 5529 pounds of CO2 annually. You can neutralize your 2008 carbon emissions by purchasing a DriveNeutral certification for $36 . Plus, again gasoline is toxic, biodiesel isn't. We had a serious oil spill in SF Bay last year and I decided I would not run fuel that is toxic if spilled. And, it's not supporting the oil industry -- biodiesel supports locale producers (who in this area use recycled oil) not oil producing companies and countries. About the NOx -- see this report -- biodiesel does not significantly increase NOx: greaseworks. org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=index&startnum=46 Last, biodiesel is not corn based, it can be made from recycled oil and soon it will come from Algae -- how many people do you know who eat algae? Prius is great, but it still runs gas. It's good to support hybrids (sure wish they figure out how to make safer, less toxic batteries), but check out biodiesel as well -- and don't get "snarky" as the original poster stated on the bio-d, it's a great alternative.
Comparing biodiesel to gas isn't constructive. Ethanol is the bio equivalent. And it too can come from non-food sources. As for biodiesel not increasing NOx emissions, that's a red herring (and conflicts with other reports). Problem is that the combustion method for diesel is inherently dirtier than gas. Levels are much higher. Smog is bad, period. You can't just purchase credits to avoid dealing with a problem either. Engine-Only (non-hybrid) diesel isn't the way of the future. .
Wow, you moderators need wooden stakes and silver bullets to keep these dead threads from rising again. This one must be some sort of record! Tom
Here is the rest of the story: 2006 Ford F250 6L Diesel: NMHC: 0.1 g/mi NMHC+NOx: 2.3 g/mi NOx(calc): 2.2 g/mi CO: 1.2 g/mi PM: 0.1 g/mi HCHO (Formaldehyde): 39 mg/mi Applying the conversion factor from the site below, we can estimate the F250's emissions on BD. http://www.biodiesel.org/pdf_files/fuelfactsheets/emissions.PDF 2006 Ford F250 6L Diesel BD100: NMHC: 0.033 g/mi NOx: 2.42 g/mi NMHC+NOx (calc): 2.453 g/mi CO: 0.624 g/mi PM: 0.053 g/mi HCHO (Formaldehyde): 12.9 mg/mi (assumed reduced similar to other organics/hydrocarbons) 2006 Toyota Prius: NMOG: 0.009 g/mi NOx: 0.01 g/mi NMOG+NOx (calc): 0.019 g/mi CO: 0.1 g/mi PM: 0 HCHO: 0 Comparing the F250 on Dino/Bio Diesel to the Prius: NMOG/NMHC: 11.1 / 3.67 Times higher NOx: 220 / 242 Times higher CO: 12 / 6.2 Times Higher PM: Much greater HCHO: Much greater Clearly its a pretty misleading oversimplification to claim that an F250 on BD is much cleaner than a Prius. The CO2 argument is also highly dependent on your assumptions regarding sources and processes. BD from WVO is very low carbon, but in very limited availability compared to our total fuel demand. BD from current virgin oil sources can be somewhat better than petroleum, or they can be more carbon intensive and environmentally destructive. Unfortunately the market is driven more by cheap than clean, so I'm not convinced we'll ever see those clean sources. Its tough to compete with virgin palm oil from SE asia at ~$1.00 a gallon. At least until 20-30 years go by and billions of acres have been decimated by harvesting of a non-sustainable mono-culture. Or until Malaysia and Indonesia start holding our economy hostage just as OPEC loves to do. I think there will be a place for BD, but I don't think the primary fuel for wide scale individual passenger vehicles is that place. If long range PHEVs can offset the large majority of the fuel demand, BD could be a good candidate for range extenders. In general I think the BD card will be much better played in heavy duty applications like long haul rail transport, public transportation and air travel than in passenger cars. Those applications are going to be the most challenging to electrify. For the rest, electric powered by renewables and biofuel sources will be far more efficient, cleaner and cheaper in the long run. Rob
yeah but vw jetta tdi was voted greenest car of the year the prius was not. i have seen for a fact on a drive that i took the jetta tdi get on a drive from seattle to san francisco avg 54.3 mpg our high was 57 mpg and low was 49 mpg. we drove 700 miles on one tank. jetta tdi's are selling like hot cakes up in the seattle area, 6 plus k cheaper, you dont need to wait a month to get one unlike the prius, double the hp and tq and fun to drive and now in the state of washington if you buy one you can get a fedral tax credit from what i know up to 1,500 dollars but thats something new that just went throught in the last couple of day ill have to get back you guys on that.
I have problem with your calculation. How could you get only 150 gal of equivalent of gas while you consumed 12000/20= 600 gal of biodiesel? 1. Bio-diesel has the same CO2 emission as the clean diesel. 2. Diesel has more carbon content than gas. Doesn't compute! Please enlighten me. Biodiesel Emissions
You guys haven't even mentioned Bio-D from Algae. Algae harvesting does not compete with agricultural land (you don't grow it in the soil) and has a yield per acre that's hundreds or even thousands of times higher than ANY current agricultural crop. Some estimates have been on the order of 100,000 gallons per acre/year. Call it a pipedream? Companies have been raising millions in venture capital right here in the SF bay area: Solazyme is one of the largest emerging companies: wwwDOTsolazymeDOTcom ... look on their "media" page for news about their company/process (I haven't made enough posts to add links, sorry!) And the Aussies are spending millions on test production facilities: (google "algae biofuel australia") What's more, locally produced bio diesel supports LOCAL communities and tax bases. Why would you advocate for imported petroleum in any form? And, hello, Iraq War?? Do you LIKE militarized control of crude reserves? I've owned a Gen II Prius and it was great, 42 MPG+ every tank and I drove it hard, AC blasting. Now I'm looking to buy a 2006 Jetta TDI (the new ones aren't compatible with anything higher than B5) and run biodiesel that produced from a facility about 40 miles from my house (Ukiah, California) ... not 8,200 miles away in Saudi Arabia. So take into account the LOSS of revenue from imported petroleum vs. locally produced Bio and tell me what is "cleaner". (a larger tax base can subsidize a lot of windmills & solar panels) And yes, a BioDiesel Prius Plug-in would be awesome, right? Not to mention Oil reserves themselves...go and see a movie like "A Crude Awakening - the Oil Crash", even if they're 50% correct we need to eventually get of fossil petroleum in all forms, period.
