Sabertec Blade - any good on a Prius?

He is saying that you could test and prove it works (if it did) by setting up a bench system in a lab and testing both with and without the device. This would give true apples to apples comparison.

I'm not going to spend the time to rigorously argue against this thing, but I still don't believe it will do anything to increase mileage as claimed. I need a better explanation than provided on the website and more specific data than provided on the website to be convinced.

 

If letters like that get the lab more paided testing, then they would have a powerful monetary incentive to sound extremely supportive. The lab makes NO money from Sabertec sales, nor do they have any obligation to any consumer. They make money by Sabertec paying them.

Remember this is a Prius forum where the Prius owners have paid Toyota ~$25k for a car defined greatly by it's mpg. If thousands of $$$$ is added to the price of the car for that, then why would Toyota not spend a $100 more for a few more percent? I am pretty much committed to the idea that Toyota did everthing they could to maximize Prius mpg. I'll agree that many auto makers have not (till lately) focused on mpg, but Toyota and Honda have always had some vehicles where this was critical. If they are not doing anything along the Sabertec line, it's not because of the cost of exhaust system piping improvements is too expensive, or that they cannot understand airflow through exhaust systems.

Basically, the whole Sabertec "system" shows up in a magazine. There are no SAE papers, no conference proceedings, no peer reviewed journal articles, etc. Every new development worth incorporating into engine performance has some "validation" setup and setup details that can be duplicated independently in a fixed facility. For example, the Wright Brothers created a wind tunnel to develop and validate their airfoil and control mechanisms. They did not wrap some fabric around some framework and takeoff to see if it worked. Where is the equivalent Sabertec "wind tunnel" testing and data?

 

You want facts getting in the way of making money? Products based on peer paper? Published in Journals? This seems to be nothing much different from other products sold in a similar fashion, claiming all sorts of MPG improvement.

 

I have a few comments here. First of which is your accusations of the lab. Since it is a certified EPA testing facility, everything has to be documented. That means that there would HAVE to be some under the table dealing for anything you said to be correct. The lab gets paid to test the product period. They don't get paid any more or any less if the product passes/fails. They also have gone through tons of customers without giving them passing results. My conclusion here is that you are suggesting false dealings. There is no reason to believe that ATDS is any more likely to deal under the table then any other company. Could they? Yes. Is it likely? No. Look at the results of many other tested products and their EPA certifications.

I hate to burst the EPA mileage number, but toyota and most every other manufacturer creates cars of equal sizes that get better gas mileage without hybrid powertrain across the world. The hybrid powertrain exists because the U.S. customer wants to purchase it. There is a stigma that goes along with being a hybrid that the marketing people at toyota (and all the other manufacturers) are aware of. Go to europe and you can find any number of vehicles that get the same mileage on gas/diesel power plants with the same utility as a prius.

Sabertec has been using a simliar product in brazil for 10+ years reducing particulate emissions from large vehicles. There is actually a lot of the documentation out there you were talking about if you go through their website. What drove this invention was the need for gas mileage in u.s. sold vehicles. Anytime there is profit to be had by investing in a technology like "the blade", people will do it.

At some point, the CEO of sabertec probably told himself that hey, if we can get this to work in brazil, why not bring it over to the u.s.? X amount of dollars and X amount of research later it is here. You mentioned something being duplicated in an independant facility; that is exactly what they did.
As I have been explaining all throughout these posts, everyone has been tuning exhausts for performance for the past 40+ years. They just had the idea of tuning the exhaust system for maximum gas mileage efficiency.

On a final note. I saw a few posts arguing about their website and the lack of information on how the product works. You only have to go through the numerous posts I made to COMPLETELY understand what the blade is doing and how it works. I would still like someone to post any SCIENTIFIC arguments against what I have said about the exhaust streams and how they work.

I believe I have proven the science behind the product to the fullest extent I could. There may be a few things I missed, but I doubt it. I would really like to move this topic back towards the science end of things as there is no ability for me to debate with anyone who is closed minded about these types of products. I have answered everything I can with the utmost truth in my answers. I have not been challenged yet on anything I have said from a science standpoint.

So once agian, if anyone can prove that it is not possible to tune an exhaust system for efficiency by attaching a blade, please do so here. I am not sabertec nor can I prove the unprovable. I can't prove whether a company is legit or false. I can't say that ATDS is not a ethical company and neither can you guys. The ONLY thing I can argue here is theorteical reasons for their marketing approach and the science behind the product.

 

This statement proves to me that you don't have a clue about what you are talking about.

 

What you need is to decide whether the EPA standards for testing are acceptable to prove this product works.

Not knowing anything other then what we are given, we have to assume the EPA certified protocol for testing gas mileage on consumer vehicles is valid. Every product that claims to improve gas mileage is tested using this same protocol.

Exactly what you asked about was performed at the ATDS facility under EPA standards.

So the only real argument at this point is whether the EPA testing at the certified independent laboratory is sufficient evidence to prove whether a gas mileage product works or does not work.

The EPA believe this is sufficient, but it seems most of you do not. That's where I think most of your arguments fall flat.

This is a quote directly from this page which defines the EPA 511 protocol.

I suggest everyone here visit that page on the 511 protocol and learn it well. After that, the only real argument is that the test was "tainted" with false inputs.

So everyone here who suggests the EPA 511 testing is not valid is also saying that the facility that performed the testing is not capable of distinguishing valid/false inputs. So by saying that, you are also saying the EPA is certifying facilities which are not capable of performing the tests in a manner which is relevant and useful.

Pretty much, you guys have just decided out of thin air that this information is not relevant. Though, the EPA says it is. The certified technicians say it is. The certified laboratory says it is. The only people saying its not are the only ones not qualified to determine whether the test is valid or not.

I am not qualified; none of you are qualified. I mean, we deal with this in our every day life with everything we buy. I hate to say this, some of you really need to think about where your point of view comes from and whether its based on logical information or purely disdain for something you don't understand nor are willing to understand.

 

I appreciate the blandness of your response and the lack of evidence to support it. So, to go along the same lines.

Your comment just shows me how unwilling you are to make a commitment to proving the truth. I can back up everything I say. You have said something with absolute no backing at all.

See how that works. Please elaborate on your response so that I may have a chance to support my conclusions.

 

Let us know when Consumer Reports has tested this product that by all accounts seems to be another one of those 'too good to be true' devices.

 

No denying that. But there is evidence to support the claims. I would also like to see consumer reports test it. That would be really cool. Them or mythbusters. I wanted to be the tester myself but the product ended up not being able to be installed on my vehicle easily.

 

You've never said what vehicle you drive. Why is that?

Might could be it wouldn't fit a Prius either...

and a whole lot of barking up the wrong tree.

 

I made no accusation, nor insinuation of the lab doing anything wrong or unethical. Period. Read the post again. What I made clear is that the lab provides a service to those that hire the lab, not to anyone else. Now a lab needs to pay their bills just as much as you and I, so they will make sure that the test results are reported in a way to ensure as much repeat business as possible. This is both good business and rather common sense. It does not mean that the product works for anything other than the vehicle in situation that was provided.

Name one.

The idea that Toyota and Honda would ignore optimizing an exhaust system (or any other system) for max mpg is a rather unlikely for the Prius, Insight, Corolla, Yaris, Civic. Also note that mpg could be improved by compromising emissions performance, so this must not be overlooked.

The only way to "Completely understand" the airflow in exhaust system is to work out things like Reynolds numbers, Moody Diagrams, pressure wave resonances and the flow passages of the system being modeled. Once this is provided, then a few months of full time work would be needed for a viable model (CFD based on Navier-Stokes equations) to compare to a "wind tunnel" system. This is what real designers of exhaust systems do. I doubt that Sabertec has done anything at this level.

This should provide you some idea of what I am talking about:
Computational fluid dynamics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Don't lose sight of the big picture. You came to this forum claiming that Sabertec "could" have something that improved mpg. A number of us are skeptical for good reason but......You then were about to do something worthwhile, perform a independent test. Then you backed out. Now we are back to square one. Very few here have any interest in the Sabertec hype and are ignoring it since rock solid proof is needed, and that seems to be in rather short supply.

 

Well my whole point behind that was that you are saying the results are only valid for that particular vehicle tested. The EPA 511 protocol is designed to test cars in a way that is relative to actual performance numbers. IE. If you see a 3% increase in the EPA protocol test, you would see real life increase of a number similar to that.

I wanted everyone to reread EPA 511 protocol and what it tests for as it is much more in depth testing then I think you guys give it credit for.

Here is a link to some diesels available in Europe which model the prius's utility and gas mileage without hybrid powertrain. US Gas Prices

On another note, it is a common belief that hybrids would benefit more from diesel engines due to the compression ignition design vs spark plug design. Why don't we have diesel hybrids here? You can use a much smaller engine and produce much higher torque numbers further increasing gas mileage and working better with the electric motor counterpart. Americans don't like diesels. That's the answer. Just like hybrids have a certain stigma attached to them, so do diesel powered vehicles.

Here is a link to the latter comment I made.http://www.thedailygreen.com/living-green/blogs/gas-mileage/vw-hybrid-gas-mileage-460527

I don't think they are ignoring it. I would bet you within the next 3-5 years, we will see much improved exhaust systems in general. Again lead times and product development equates to 3 years minimum in the auto industry. That's also a common known fact. You make a discovery today. Unless it is the most amazing thing ever and it will cost them millions of dollars not to change immediately, you are looking at long lead times.

On another note, the big manufacturers aren't the only ones who are making discoveries. Indpendants and small labs make discoveries all the time (conspiracy theory incoming). Its the big manufacturers that hold these discoveries back. You only have to look at the medical industry to prove this. If a drug is found to cure some disease, but this company can't afford the 100 million dollar testing to prove it, guess what happens? It is never made legal. But, you can comb the internet and find all sorts of cures that are not main stream that WORK. The big companies want the money. Thats. Sometimes, they don't even want to buy your product from you or buy you out. They just don't want you to exist at all. They have the money to bully you out of the market or not accept your product whether it works or not.

This occurs in the auto industry just like it does in EVERY other major industry. Someone such as yourself who is not easily persuaded by claims and testing must known this. There are hundreds of products out there that are both cost efficient and more effective then what comes on your car today. Whether its the plastics, the glue that holds the car together, the tires, wheels, wires, etc. There are products out there that the manufacturers could be using. But they aren't? Why is that?

I am quite familiar with what you are talking about. I can't prove this, but I would think they probably have done this testing. I know their chief engineer has heavy knowledge on the subject. Maybe Ill shoot him an email and see what he says. Also, I am speaking in terms of concept. Obviously, to be able to show the results in a manner you want would require the types of testing you mentioned. Every car is different from a technical standpoint, but they all use the same method to expel exhaust gases.

So will the blade work on every vehicle in existence and give them all improvements? Of course not. But, the idea is that most vehicles will see an improvement because the design is based off inadequacies in the design of exhaust systems in general. Its not designed with one car in mind, it designed with the general flow of air through an exhaust system in mind. That is why they even show in their testing that one of the vehicles (a lincoln) did not see an improvement from the blade. Obviously, there are other factors affecting that cars ability to utilize the blade that are unknown without the testing you are talking about.

My point has always been that sabertec is not going to spend money trying to convert you and me over. I doubt they care or need our money. So, the testing they did was most likely to fulfill the basic requirements of a fuel economy improver according to EPA standards. That way, when all the naysayers jump in, they have the testing to back up their claims. You can't be mad at them for the lack of spending money trying to convert the most die hard critics. It just doesn't make sense from a value standpoint and will most likely never pay off in the long run anyways.

To support my idea I offer a theoretical example. Today, I created a product that increases gas mileage by 3% garanteed on every vehicle. What would I do to get every die hard car fanatic backing my product? Now, I am just a startup company so my capital is limited. I know I have to get EPA 511 testing and carb testing minimum to even be considered by anyone a viable product. That can be a 100,000 dollars right there. I now have to market this product to an audience so they know it exists.

If I market in the back of car magazines, I will get lumped into the "tornado/turbonator" crowd. I don't want that. If I go to car events like SEMA, AAPEX and buy a booth, I am looking at extreme costs, but good market exposure. But, I can't prove my product increases gas mileage 3%. The only thing I can do is have it tested to prove that by the people who do this type of testing. I already did that. Now, you come along and there is no way you will believe me. I could pay another 100 thousand dollars for more certifications and more vehicles tested, but what does that prove? To you, nothing. Because there is no testing in the world outside of testing it yourself that is going to make you buy this product (i am using you as a general term for die hard car fanatics). If i gave it to you, you probably would use it and try it out.

My product is garanteed to increase your gas mileage by 3% or your money back. But, you have to spend 200 dollars to find this out.

See where I am getting here. Sabertec has done all of the above. They even give their product away to celebrities to increase marketing efforts. If a celebrity backs a product, then it is a lot more likely to sell then a product that is hated by said celebrity. Does that endorsement mean my product works? Of course not.

Sabertec like any other company like themselves only have so much money to work with. I believe they have spent it in the best way possible don't you?

I mean, the real question is. How much money would sabertec have to spend to make the die hard fanatic believe in their product without testing it themselves. Because, you and I both know that no matter who tests the product, there will always be a negative stigma with the hard core fanatics that the testing was biased, unfair, or in some way contrived.

I don't disagree with you here at all. I came here with the utmost candor and I was hoping to prove something. I was not able to do that so I decided to stick to proving the theory behind the product.

Someone asked me a question about my vehicle. I drive a honda civic with a 3" exhaust system that is fit into the rear bumper like most civics. To not change the dynamic of the exhaust system, they said I would need 2 of the blades to flow the same as it is designed for smaller exhaust pipes.

 

It does fit a prius right out of the box. They use it as one of their demonstration vehicles.

 

I need to point out that the mpg for the American engines is miles per US gallon and the European mpg is miles per UK gallon. The UK gallon is 1.2 US gallons. Then the mpg determination is done using different methods that typically give higher numbers for the same vehicle when evaluated to European standards. This brings the numbers back into reality.....and back to the original point: What US car can I buy with better mpg than the US Prius? You still need to name one.

They do not meet US emissions requirements. However, this is about to be overcome, so that hybrid diesels are likely before too long.

We are getting a little far removed from the Sabertec issue. No question that companies (both big and small!) are in it for the money. However, established companies have a lot more accountability for environment compliance and safety compliance. This increases costs and lots of sensible limitations on incorporating new things. There was a good reason that Chinese baby formula was much more cost efficient than the competition, never mind that it killed a lot of babies.

Back to the Sabertec issue. Sabertec cannot have a patent on the physics, only the implementation. The reason for the big companies not incorporating the Sabertec theory has to do with the physics itself, not any conspiracy. They can't incorporate it if there is nothing to incorporate, or there is a big drawback to do so. For example, let's say the mpg improvement only comes at a very exact rpm and is much worse at every other rpm. You certainly could set up a test to only occur in the good rpm range, whereas in real life, this is not possible. (This has been done with a Prius. Using very special driving situations, 100 mpg driving has been proven....on a closed test track with trained drivers.)

There are a great many products on the market that are always being sold, but have never really been subject to true testing. For example, super expensive audio speaker cables with special "weaves/alloys/coatings" that improve sonic performance. They are sold by the mile, but with no testing from a true first rate double blind evaluation with control samples. In the meantime, these cable companies make lots of profit and realize that slick celebrity ads and impressive technospeak can make for a great business (with cheap cables). They do not need, nor want any explicit testing. Meanwhile, military and medical audio wires go through very explicit test of impedance, resistance, and loss testing so it is known exactly how they perform. These are built by completely different cable companies (wth huge volumes).

Sabertec looks and acts like the former. In this case, I would say they are spending their money the best way possible.

Independent thinking is a two edged sword here. You were going down the right path until it became too painful. Lacking this test, you do not want to become a cheerleader for Sabertec since the only data you have is Sabertec supplied. I cannot say that the Sabertec is guaranteed to fail on most vehicles. I can say that true advances in physics and engineering have proven the approach of solid theory, good experiments, and solid review. The Sabertec approach bypasses most all of this with something that replicates the style, but not the substance.

 

If I am not mistaken, I was pointing out that there are vehicles in other countries that meet the needs that the prius provides. My point was to pick out the american consumer as the problem, not the technology out there. There is the technology to produce high MPG cars without using hybrids. I am not a hybrid fan as I don't like the batteries and how they will be disposed of. But, thats a whole nother argument. I said european car in my statement. I cannot point out any american cars made in the last 10 years.

urea injection meets california emissions laws. The technology exists for diesel hybrids. I don't think they will proliferate in the states as we never built the infastructure for diesel and amercians in general don't like diesels

I can't help go back to my previous argument here. The EPA 511 tests are designed to be as much like real world driving as possible. Sabertec did not do these tests. An epa certified testing facility did. Don't forget that.

Sabertec has the testing. You have just failed to accept is as valid. The epa does this testing and you have mentioned your double blind testing multiple times. Even with the EPA does the testing themselves, they do not use the method you are talking about. Maybe its a problem with the way the EPA does testing. Maybe its not neccesary in this circumstance. All i was ever trying to say is that I am not the best judge of what makes a valid MPG test.

All i know is that the EPA is the governing authority when it comes to products that claim MPG authorities and sabertec had their product tested in a manner compliant with EPA standards.

Your analogy to audio/video cables is just bad. It is in no way relevant to sabertec and the industry it is selling in.

I will explain this one last time using your analogy.

For sabertec to be in the same situation as the companies you mentioned, they would have had to market their product with pretty much no testing at all.

Do these audio cable companies have certified testing by the government controlled testing agency? No. Is there an agency that does this? I don't know. Have they had testing at all? I don't know.

Does sabertec even compare to these companies? No. Why not? Because the governing body behind MPG increases certifies facilities to perform tests that they created to prove MPG increases.

Once a product passes independant testing, they can CHOOSE to have their product tested by the EPA again using the exact same testing procedures for a substantial additional cost. In sabertec's situation. It seems like its another 100k plus. Its 27k for 2 cars and I am assuming probably another 13k for each additional one. Sabertec tested around 7 of them I think.

Your definition of true testing is absurd. Where are all the forum threads about how someone installed this product and it didn't work worth a shit? I can't find them.

Sabertec has tested their product in every way they possibly can. They could do all the double blind testing in the world and still not prove anything to you.

A particular product comes to mind. Those stupid weight loss pills from TV that always claim double blind testing. Do you believe their results more then the results of the governing body of MPG increases? I sure don't....

[/quote] As much as you may think I am a fanboy of sabertec, I ask that you look into what you are saying as well. You are such an anti-sabertec person that you have created invalid argument to support your claims.

I am not saying the sabertec blade works or does not work. It works in theory. It works in goverment certified testing. A similar technology has been used in brazil for the past 10 years and is absolutely does work.

In fact, if you ignored the fact that the sabertec blade increased gas mileage at all, it is still a particulate capture device that passes carb emissions testing.

I am done in this thread. I think you have pointed out all your arguments and I have pointed out all of mind. I feel I have proven my arguments beyond doubt and that there is nothing I could say or tell most of you that would change your mind at all.

I believe my arguments have been stronger then any posted in this thread and that I have supported them with ample evidence. Whereas, the counter arguments are supported by theory and the general disdain of this type of product.

I have science on my side. I have government certified testing on my side, I also have 10 + years of product use in another country on my side (the particle containing part). Not to mention the government vehicles and other parties already using the blade.

Just to finish up my argument. The U.S. military uses the EPA 511 protocol to test any product that claims to improve gas mileage. This is the EXACT same protocol used in the testing of the blade.

I am done here. I think we can all agree that we have exhausted ourselves regardless of how we believe. I am not a sabertec fanboy and I will be the first one to post on here if it ever turns out to be anything other then exactly what it says. You can count on that.

 

Once you make all the corrections I listed, it turns out that there is no European car the same size as the Prius getting better mileage. Note that the Prius is considered a rather big car in Europe. The really high mpg cars in Europe are also the really small cars. It is also very important to know that Europe has taxed diesel fuels a lot less than gas. Couple that with a gallon of diesel having significantly more energy than a gallon of gas, then the intense popularity of diesel fuels in Europe makes great sense. Your complaints about too many Americans buying cars much bigger than necessary has a lot of supporters on this forum.

The emissions of urea injection meet CA standards, but the need to refill the urea tank regularly violates CA standards, so overall the urea injection technology does not meet emissions requirements. The CA view is that most people would not bother to keep the urea filled, hence the rejection of urea technology.

I'm not sure what you mean about the diesel infrastructure. Every (or nearly every) semi on the road is diesel powered. My bother has a diesel Ford truck. I see a diesel pump with few exceptions at every gas station. What bothers most diesel drivers is the price, not infrastructure.

Never did. I have no issue with the test or the lab, nor with the Sabertec results. It's with the "unconstrained" aspects that could be a dramatic factor in the final conclusion.

There is a significant point here. I will agree that the EPA has consistent tests and is the governing authority of what test must be applied. The problem is the running the EPA test is a valid proxy for proving that the Sabertec product works for anything other than that specific car, on those specific test. There are so many mechanisms (some ethical, some less so) that can make a perfectly run test show results that cannot be achieved in the real world consistently.

Human nature. Few are eager to announce that they spent money on a product that was worthless for them.

Actually, the double blind test could prove that it does not work. It's easy to claim any kind of testing. The real work is seeing if the dicipline and rigour was followed from start to finish. That takes time and effort. I'm not the type to believe any ad on TV.

It never was a matter of arguments. It is about hard, rigorous, independent, repeatable data.

No doubt that the discussion here has been frustrating at times. However, hats off to you for keeping the focus on the issue and not on personalities. Few can maintain the level of dicipline you have managed.

 

You would think that if the device actually worked, Sabertec would offer some to Priuschat, at no charge, for review. Afterall, a Google search for Sabertec Blade reveals this thread near the top of the results, and would be cheap advertising for them to show the world it works by converting the doubters. This is the unofficial thread for blade discussion!

 

All the manufacturers are switching to a 10 start rule if im not mistaken. This helps get the vehicles sold in California. Once the urea runs out, you can start the car 10 times before you have to have it towed.

What I meant is that the USA has not made any new gas/diesel refining plants in the last what 15+ years? This means that even if diesel was a good alternative (it is), that we would not be able to meet demand. Currently, there is not enough diesel fuel out there to sustain a large new demand for the fuel. That's what I meant by the infrastructure. We would have to create new diesel refining plants in the US and I doubt that would ever occur. We can't even get new gas ones made when one explodes.

The problem is so bad that every gas refining plant in the us (with a few exceptions) is listed as being in building stages. What I mean is that the actual construction of the facility is never finished. That is the only way they can expand production as current protest groups will never let a new plant be produced. So, existing plants just grow in size.

On another note, someone mentioned that there was no press on this product. Here are a few websites I found with some press regarding sabertec and the blade.

"Blade's" battle against car exhaust and pollution : News : WNWO NBC24

The Royal Gazette

 

Can you find this Blade product at the CARB website?
Database: Aftermarket Parts Database of Executive Orders

Thanks.

 

I'm not up to speed on the latest changes in CARB regulations (being far removed from CA), but obviously BlueTec cars are being used in CA, so this this is good to know.

http://priuschat.com/forums/freds-h...inery-discussion-jay-jimmie-production-2.html

This link is a detailed thread of how refineries work. It's worth the read and the resident expert that can provide a lot of insight into where your opinions are good and where they may need to be "refined".