Diesel Hybrids on the Fast Track

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Areometer, Mar 22, 2005.

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  1. Areometer

    Areometer Silver Business Sponsor

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    Hybrid gas-electric vehicles are the current champions of fuel economy, but they may soon get lapped. Auto manufacturers are making tracks to produce diesel hybrids that will go even further on a gallon of fuel.

    Hybrid vehicles like the Toyota Prius, Honda Civic Hybrid and Ford Escape Hybrid employ an electric motor that assists the engine and enables the vehicles to go between 15 and 50 percent further on a tank than a comparable gasoline vehicle. But a new generation of hybrid diesel prototypes being developed by General Motors, DaimlerChrysler and Ford could soon surpass these milestones.

    Vehicles with diesel engines typically get 25 to 30 percent more miles to the gallon than their gasoline counterparts, according to Charlie Freese, executive engineering director at GM Powertrain. Freese said the many factors that make diesel engines more efficient include operating unthrottled and more efficient oxidizing of fuel. Diesel engines also have a higher compression ratio, and the heavier diesel fuel has a higher energy density, according to Freese.

    Diesel hybrid technology has been used in large vehicles that transport heavy loads, including buses and locomotives. General Motors subsidiary Allison Transmission produces hybrid diesel engines used by several municipal bus services.

    Freese said diesel and hybrid technologies have synergies because hybrid systems reduce fuel consumption by relying on the electric motor while idling and during acceleration of stop-and-go traffic. Diesel engines are optimized for hauling heavy loads and for steady-speed highway driving. "The aspect that is critical (in designing a diesel hybrid) is to balance it for all operating environments," according to Freese.

    Earlier this year, GM unveiled the Opel Astra Diesel Hybrid, a sedan concept vehicle the company claims would increase fuel economy by 25 percent over a comparable diesel car, or approximately 59 miles per gallon. The vehicle uses a hybrid system with two electric motors being co-developed with DaimlerChrysler, according to GM.

    Auto manufacturers produce concept cars to showcase technologies in development that are often later integrated into commercial vehicles.

    DaimlerChrysler produced 100 Dodge Ram hybrid electric vehicle diesel pickup trucks in December, according to spokesman Cole Quinnell. Most of them were sold before they were manufactured, according to Quinnell.

    "We produced the vehicles to extend our learning about hybrids," Quinnell said. The goal is to produce trucks that get better than 30 miles per gallon.

    DaimlerChrysler's future diesel hybrids will be based on the hybrid technology being developed with GM and would be available in late 2007 or early 2008, according to Quinnell. In the future, "Adding the hybrid option would be an option to check off," as customers do today to request a turbo-charged engine, Quinnell said.

    The company will show off the Mercedes-Benz S-Class Hybrid concept car at the 2005 New York International Auto Show, which runs from March 25 to April 3. Also showcasing a diesel hybrid concept vehicle at the auto show will be Ford Motor Company with its Mercury Meta One, a crossover wagon.

    In addition to increasing fuel economy, coupling an electric motor with a diesel engine can help automakers meet increasingly stringent emissions standards, according to Dan Benjamin, an analyst at ABI Research. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency requires auto manufacturers to greatly reduce emissions for their 2007 model-year vehicles.

    "Can hybrid engines help (reduce) diesel emissions? Absolutely," Benjamin said. Although diesel vehicle manufacturers will likely add filters or catalytic converters to reduce emissions, "hybrid systems can cut emissions by eliminating situations where NOx (nitrogen oxide) emissions are at their very worst," according to Benjamin. Meeting California's tougher emissions requirements, which have been adopted by four other states, presents more of a challenge, Benjamin said.

    Automakers are more likely to offer diesel hybrids in Europe before the United States gets them because diesel fuel is much more expensive there. And diesel vehicles have a much higher market penetration there, according to Benjamin.

    Integrating both hybrid and diesel technology could add up to $8,000 to the price of a vehicle, which may limit its appeal to American consumers. "Even (with gas at) $3 a gallon, $8,000 (more) is a lot to pay."

    GM's Freese agrees that meeting the emissions and budgetary requirements in the United States would be difficult. "North America is a challenge," he said. "The cost ends up being significant for some of the (emissions reducing) systems."

    > Original Link
     
    #1 Areometer, Mar 22, 2005
  2. Anonymous

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    $8,000 price premium for a diesel hybrid is complete nonsense.

    Ricardo over here have shown that a diesel-hybrid can be manufactured for an additional cost over base of only $1,000.

    Ricardo i-mogen astra
     
    #2 Anonymous, Mar 23, 2005
  3. Darwood

    Darwood Senior Member

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    One step closer to fuel independence. A deisel hybrid with an EV switch and a plug in could raise fuel economy to 100 miles a gallon. also, deisel fuel can be produced through agriculture IE:ethanol. Although it is my understanding that better oil production can be achieved through the rape seed (used to make canola) so I don't know why we push corn based ethanol. Or why we push ethanol gasoline when it makes more sense as a deisel fuel.
     
    #3 Darwood, Mar 23, 2005
  4. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    clett;

    that $8,000 premium for diesel hybrid tech is not what it would cost the auto manufacturers to add it, its what they would charge us for providing the technology to us.

    two totally different things
     
    #4 DaveinOlyWA, Mar 23, 2005
  5. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Darwood\";p=\"75036)</div>
    Biodiesel is used in the EU and is often made from Rapeseed. It needs a suitable cosolvent like dimethyl ester or diethyl ester.

    Some folks are worried about the effect of very cold temps (-20 C or colder) on biodiesel. I don't think the cold weather effects are any worse than they are for regular #2 diesel, as in wintertime you have to run #1 diesel to avoid the CFPP (Cold Filter Plugging Point - a measure of diesel fuel gelling).

    From the theory, you could stuff something like a 3 cylinder turbodiesel under the hood of a new Prius and gain 20-25 MPG. That would be cool.
     
    #5 jayman, Mar 23, 2005
  6. Bill60546

    Bill60546 Member

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    Isnt it amazing what a little competition will do to motivate major corporations? Ah, the power of the consumer. :mrgreen:
     
    #6 Bill60546, Mar 23, 2005
  7. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    Bill:

    It's odd that GM ignored the hybrid technology for North America but their Opel subdivision will be using it.

    They really don't get it ...
     
    #7 jayman, Mar 23, 2005
  8. Bill60546

    Bill60546 Member

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    Am thinking diesel hybrid Tundra.
     
    #8 Bill60546, Mar 23, 2005
  9. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    Bill:

    Oh my but that would be a NICE ride. Where do I sign up?
     
    #9 jayman, Mar 24, 2005
  10. Wolfman

    Wolfman New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bill60546\";p=\"75215)</div>
    Perfect!!! :mrgreen:
     
    #10 Wolfman, Mar 24, 2005
  11. skruse

    skruse Senior Member

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    Diesel particulate matter is a known carcinogen. While a diesel hybrid will reduce emissions and increase fuel economy, even with filters, will it be enough?

    Perhaps train locomotives will take a step up to hybrids. Federal Express is taking a serious look at diesel hybrids to raise fuel economy and lower costs. Another problem is diesel (Fuel Oil No. 1) is more highly refined in Europe. What we get in the US is less refined and produces more particulate matter. Refiners will need to clean-up fossil fuel based diesel, whereas biodiesel will have attractive qualities.
     
    #11 skruse, Mar 24, 2005
  12. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    First of all, diesel is graded #2 here in North America. Diesel fuel #1 is blended with much lighter distillates for cold weather operation to reduce the CFPP to -30 or colder. As a consequence, expect 5-10% lower economy and less lubricity for rotary injector pumps.

    Sure beats changing a gelled fuel filter at -40 though.

    The particulate problem has a fair amount to do with the base timing differences between diesel motors operated in North America and in EU, due to sulphur levels.

    In the EU, diesel #2 sulphur levels are generally below 20 ppm. With suitable base timing, water cooled EGR, and post treatment catalysts, issues like PM10 are well controlled.

    Here in North America, diesel may contain 200-350 ppm sulphur. The base timing must be changed to compensate for this, to protect the motor. At those levels, even rudimentary catalytic convertors will quickly fail. Until we get our sulphur levels under 20 ppm, the particulate matter is academic.
     
    #12 jayman, Mar 24, 2005
  13. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    diesel electric locomotives??

    we've had them for years
     
    #13 DaveinOlyWA, Mar 24, 2005
  14. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    David:

    Those new-fangled diesel electric locomotives, most of which are made by a GM subdivision?

    Nah, we've only had them for 60 years or so ... :roll:
     
    #14 jayman, Mar 24, 2005
  15. Wolfman

    Wolfman New Member

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    New diesel fuel sulphur content regs go online next year as well. This will bring us very close to European fuel specs for diesel. (15 ppm vs. 10 ppm)
     
    #15 Wolfman, Mar 25, 2005
  16. kidtwist

    kidtwist New Member

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    I don't know how I feel about diesel hybrids. :|

    I keep hearing conflicting opinions on how polluting diesel engines are. I know that diesel in Europe is cleaner than the diesel here in the US, but I've even heard from someone over there that diesel pollution is horrible.
     
    #16 kidtwist, Mar 25, 2005
  17. Frank Hudon

    Frank Hudon Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(skruse\";p=\"75481)</div>
    do a google on Green Goat. Devloped right here in Vancouver. The person behind it has a Prius with "My other hybrid is a Locomotive" painted on the side of it.
     
    #17 Frank Hudon, Mar 25, 2005
  18. NuShrike

    NuShrike Active Member

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    This article distinctly doesn't go into if these diesel engines have comparable hp to a gas-engine version for the gas mileage.

    It's been commented the gas-hybrid is the more ideal because their matching power profiles. Electric w/ lots of torque at the low end, gas with lots of HP at the high end.

    Whereas diesel tends to be lower hp with torque at the low end, and basically overlapping the electric. So you could sure tow with this thing, but could you drive it on the highway?
     
    #18 NuShrike, Mar 25, 2005
  19. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    the big 3 developed diesel hybrids in 2000. they were all street worthy. for a first effort, the results were very very impressive.

    with refinements, im sure that 100 mpg is not out of the question. even with increased levels of polution, it would still be very much cleaner than anything except the Prius.

    i know ive railed on the big 3 a lot with their unwillingness to get on the hybrid wagon. when they were devoloping the technology, Toyota asked to be included and was shut out. if that would not have happened, all four manufacturers may have co-licensed the same technology in one of the most beneficial joint efforts of all time.

    as it stands however, the other 3 are struggling to survive.

    http://priuschat.com/forums/album_pic.php?pic_id=799
     
    #19 DaveinOlyWA, Mar 26, 2005
  20. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    David:

    Sure they developed hybrid diesels. GM's Opel subdivision in Europe has just demonstrated their new diesel hybrid, based on the Astra:

    http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/01.../09/000122.html

    http://www.dieselnet.com/news/0501gm.html

    http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/adv_te...tra_011005.html

    They quote a specific combined Euro cycle fuel economy of "under" 4 litres per 100km. The Prius in Europe is rated combined at 4.3 litres per 100km (EU4). Around 7 MPG difference.

    It really irks me that they are capable of developing something great, then p******* it away. Now that the fuel prices are really climbing, they still refuse to accept reality. Hey, let's try to sell more Suburbans!
     
    #20 jayman, Mar 26, 2005
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