When two gunmen smashed through the front glass door...

Dave, those are meaningless numbers. The real question is how many people are killed each year in home invasions vs people killed by their own guns via accident. Comparing accidental discharge deaths to motor vehicle accident deaths doesn't tell you anything about the pros/cons of having easily accessible, loaded weapons in the home (esp with young kids around).

 

Note that i didn't say what was safer and what wasn't, i didn't try to provide numbers to prove any safety factor with guns. what i actually said was:

And as a statement that is entirely true and not deserving of your ridicule.

I personally believe that guns do have their place in society (in the hands of trained law officers/military and for hunting purposes), but that, in general, keeping them out of our neighborhoods and homes would make things safer.

As many people have posted here, it takes a lot to stop a bullet, and the walls of your house aren't necessarily enough. I recognize that there are individuals who own guns, have them in their home, and even in a sudden, hectic situation would ensure down range safety before firing their weapon. But i also recognize there are people out there whose only concern would be killing the "bad guy" and wouldn't think about the possible consequences of a missed shot hitting the house across the street. It's those people that make me worry. As an individual, you can chose to have or not have guns in your house and what precautions you take with them to ensure the safety of yourself and those around you. But you can't control how your neighbors may use or store their guns and how that might effect your safety.

 

Well Ming, I think you got your civil thread. This has been a good discussion.

 

I use hollow points so they shouldn't go through a lot of bodies and walls

 

There's no doubt that they're better than ball. Buck shot is better though. Pistols are notoriously inaccurate esp when you're amped up scared shiteless. Of course, for 99.99% of the population it doesn't really matter.

 

The stats aren't on the page, I had to read through basically every article they linked to put numbers together. Which is part of my point. Stats are very hard to find, but when you do dig into them the picture they paint is a lot different than the sensationalized headlines which would lead one to believe that people are being murdered in their beds left and right.

Rob

 

Ahhhh, YOU put these numbers together

 

He assembled them from within one site. They're not HIS numbers, they're some else's. Considering that that site was all about the dangers of home invasions, the numbers are surprisingly modest.

 

Hmm, well I guess I will toss my two cents into this hat. I live a ways out in the country, my house is on several acres, and there really isn't anyone around. Owning firearms is pretty much a given. I can hunt game in my back yard. I own many firearms myself, and I have 2 daughters. Quite a few of mine are loaded specifically for the home defense role. I keep a "black rifle" with lots of nifty doodads (most handy being a weapon mounted surefire light), several pistols, 2 shotguns, and a revolver loaded and ready. They are scattered throughout the house where one is accessible in any given room. My friends have often asked me if I am worried about my daughters "messing" with them. Now that has to be the dumbest question ever, I tell them. Why would they mess with mine when they have their own. Yep both of them have firearms in their rooms. They are theirs, and they know what they are for. They would no more play with them, than they would turn the oven on and stick their head inside. I hope that we will never need to use any of these on another human, but should the need arise well... Oh and on the subject of gun "needs" and bans, ANY INFRINGEMENT OF MY RIGHT TO OWN ANY WEAPON THAT I SHOULD WANT UNDER MY SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHTS WILL BE MET WITH THE STIFFEST RESISTANCE THAT I CAN MUSTER!

 

A view from stupid European:
Guns are built to kill. They are not built to defend anyone. Primary objective is to kill as easy as possible. Especially when I see debate here even around stuff like hydro shock bullets and how "cool" they seem to be ...

If there would be less guns around, there would be less killing around. Defense is lame excuse for gun proliferation.
Guns should be limited to military and law enforcement agencies only.

 

but guns dont kill. and there wouldnt be less killing. its the person who does the killing. not their weapon of choice..

 

good for the home owners also.. always love to see people stuck up and protect what is theres and what they work for...

 

I work in a law enforcement roll, unarmed but for a camera, pen and note book and at night a 3 cell maglight. If I get told we will need to carry a firearm in future I'll be looking for another job. I don't want to get shot and people are more likely to be shot if they have a gun, I don't want one.

I have never fired a real gun and don't want to. I have played with a worn out air riffle as a teenager.

 

That's the trouble, the guns are in the hands of the gun nuts. Scary thought isn't it. A whole house full of guns, in every room a potential for an instant easy death. Why not a little social justice to reduce the threat? I don't think the the American fore fathers had this in mind when they said each state should have a well armed militia.

 

DH keeps a sword handy near the front door.

 

How many mass killing rampages have occurred without guns ?

How many violent acts are facilitated by guns ? It's a lot easier to spray bullets at someone from 6 feet away than have a hand-to-hand fight. Angry cowards use guns.

I can run away from a knife, I cannot from a gun.


From a poliitcal point of view, I find these self-fulfilling prophecies so tiring:

"It doesn't matter why we are in Iraq, now we have to win"
"It doesn't matter that the financial system is corrupt, know we have to fix it"
"Now that guns are everywhere, we need more to defend ourselves"

Coming up:
"It doesn't matter who figured out global warming decades earlier. Now we have to deal with it"

 

Cheers Ogo, welcome to the debate. It's always nice to have the Euro perspective. It's a tricky thing here because there are already so many guns. I don't know if you're familiar with the sordid history of the US but back in the 1920's a bunch of folks thought that it would be a great idea to ban alchohol consumption. The result was a massive black market controlled by the mafia. It was really organized crimes big break in this country. My fear is that if we tried to round up all the guns we'd just be taking them away from the lawful citizens who use them responsibly. It would also create another massive black market if done poorly. So it's a tricky question. Guns don't kill. People kill. BUT, firearms make it WAY easier to do and there's no way around that. So it really is a tricky situation. I don't really know what the solution is.

 

Pat Sparks you and I have different opinions, and that's ok. BTW I prefer the label, "firearm enthusiast", rather than gun nut. My firearms are one of my hobbies, and I do probably have more than I need, but that's ok too. I am allowed to own just as many as I desire, and am licensed to carry in many different venues. Want to know something else that might worry you? I also have collected artillery, and fully automatic crew served weapons, (legally of course). Not many complaints or problems with the neighbors when you have towed artillery parked in the front yard. I've never thought that "guns kill people", people kill people but firearms are just a facilitator. Go back a coupla hundred years and you would find people killing people with swords, back even futher and you would find rocks. If you look at what our founding fathers had in mind, you might be suprised. It is now documented from the Supreme Court that the militia clause is separate from the individual right to own firearms. The conception of liberty from our forefathers was that we would do as we pleased as long as no one else's liberties were infringed upon.

 

You've got a class 3 then, no? Do the feds ever drop in for tea? Who regulates those anyway, ATF or FBI? What kinda crew served? Pig? 240? Mod Deuce? Brilliant fun but crikey, must cost loads of money to go through one belt of M80 or M2.