Prius Myths and their Rebuttals

You know, it's funny. I sell my own industry-specific software to car dealers for use in their Finance & Insurance departments (no - the monthly payment is NOT $528.00) so I'm in dealerships of every kind all day every day - or on the phones with these guys making changes or modifications. And I've been doing this since 1984 (yikes). I cover Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, Tennessee, Kentucky, Indiana, North Carolina, South Carolina, sometimes Virginia, and I live in central Georgia south of Atlanta about 80 miles.

I only said all that because I know that in my more-than-a-quarter century being out here on the open road that I've driven a couple million miles. I owned 11 (eleven) new Chevy Surburbans in one 10-year period. And I've owned something like a total of 35 or 36 new vehicles, including this fabulous 2008 Prius (The wife and I are #2 and #3 for new 2009's on our local Toyota dealer's waiting list - full price, of course.). A few of you know me - so you know this stuff is not bs - every word true.

That asside - look, you can force ANY car to get fabulous gas mileage. I've been in so many on-line arguments over the years with the "Yes I did" - "No you DIDN'T" crap that I just lurk any more... mostly. Ain't got time...

But - as a perfect "for instance" - I had a 2004 Honda Accord EXL4 Navi (gorgeous car) that I drove from a gas station here to Selma, AL, and worked 6 hours and then drove it BACK home to that same PUMP - 502 miles exactly - still had a quarter of a tank of gas when I got there - and after careful refilling of the tank which included stares from people when I shook the car three or four times with the cap on to get that last little bit into it, I got 44.115 miles per gallon that day. The overly optimistic EPA on that car was (if I remember correctly) 32c/37h ? What's the new Accord 4cylinder rated at... 25 / 32 or something ? Basically the same motor ?

I don't care if you don't believe it. That's NOT the reason for the post. It's merely to tell all of you that hypermiling has been around forever with us extremists who really do know how to do it - at least a little bit - and to heck with truck drivers running 85 or 90 miles an hour and the rest of you in your Suburbans and Hemi's and 7-series BMW's who think you own the same roads I pay taxes on - screaming profanity at me as you whisk past my 2008 Prius getting 60+ mpg (see the picture and weep) over there in the right lane with my emergency flashers on to keep you nut jobs from running slap over me !

We don't have a recession where I drive in the Southeast. What we DO have is an endless armada of huge SUV's and honkin dualie (sp?) pickup trucks and 18-wheelers all blasting down the road into what must be some final financial "I DON'T CARE AND I'M MASHING MY GAS PEDAL TO PROVE IT" oblivion that has yet to come into focus. Most of them are smoking AND talking on hand-held cell phones and eating and putting on makeup.

There is NO common sense. Our collective stupididy is unconscionable. What - you want more proof? Okay. Look at the current outlaw administration. Thank you God - because now I'm SURE that we've been paid back for whatever it was we did to make you this mad... and maybe, just MAYBE, it gets better now ????

In the meantime I'm over here in the right lane - minding my own business - getting 60 miles per gallon in my little red Prius - and waiting in ANY line for ANY car that gets better than that - electric, fuel cell, diesel, nuclear fission, whatever it might be. PUT ME DOWN for TWO of 'em.

Ira Flato's Friday (Sirius radio) show, Science Friday, hosted expert folks the other day that said a single 95-square-mile solar array out in the US southwest desert would produce more than enough electricity to "fuel" the entire country. Also said that solar panels on the roofs of only 15% of all rooftops in the US that have the appropriate southern exposure would, also, produce as much electricity - and would entirely "fuel" the nation. Oh. And with existing technology... nothing to invent... just lay down a couple hundred thousand panels and install transmission lines east and west to move all this new electricity.

We are idiots. Shame on us. We get what we deserve... including lies and illegal cowboy war with lots and lots and lots of dead American kids who have died in those distant deserts while Osama is STILL out there riding around on a well-fed burro and laughing at all of us - but mostly your boy, George Bush.

 

I have two comments:
1. The cost numbers include cost to manufacture, not just the cost to the owner
2. The lifetime number are high for the Prius because of the 'anticipated' battery life. Obviously, the battery will last much longer and for certain the gas engine will run much longer.

Don't be fooled about these numbers. I'll try to post some information from the Federal Government about cost of ownership in a future post.

 

Wow you seem to have described every other vehicle and driver I see here in Texas. Even in "liberal" Austin the number of morons driving these giant vehicles like they are Mad Max is shocking. I remember a woman years ago who gave a soundbite on the local news about her Ford Excursion being a "great grocery-getter". For what, the entire Marine Corps?

I think we would have one little problem with that - darkness! Unless some kind of mass storage system can be implemented there is still a substantial need for electricity at night. And while we can do the solar changeover with existing tech the practical aspects of doing it are mind boggling. As is the investment needed to do it. I'm all about solar and renewables, but any sea change in our power generation/distribution system will be arduous. We'll manage to do it, but I don't think it will happen quickly.

 

I'd like to think the average American and Canadian is a decent, law abiding, moral citizen. Unfortunately, what I see around me is just the opposite

Well, I guess in the final analysis, we get the government that we deserve, don't we? I'm always reminded of this whenever I travel on business. Unless a person has really been around, they have no business knocking down a country like France or Sweden or Switzerland

Speaking of which, bright and early Tuesday, I'm back to the grind. Gone almost 3 weeks. I always hope when I return that things here have somehow calmed down and everybody has come to their collective senses.

I guess that is asking too much

 

How generous of you to assume we all have senses to return to. I like to say that if sense were common, more people would have some. Enjoy your trip.

 

fact- prius owners are more likely to be intolerant and view anybody who disagrees with them as ignorant or stupid (before i get attacked, this is based off of an actual survey of the political views of different car owners)

 

I suggest you cite your sources when you state something like this as fact. Do you have a link?

That is unless your intent is strictly to bait, which your user name and your other post suggest is the case. I'm not sure you're interested in credibility, but if so, you're not starting off well. So don't expect this report of a "survey" to be very credible either.

 

mr. jimbo,
I do not have a link as it was published in a local newspaper. For the study, the reporter had owners of different types of cars fill out questionnaires discussing their own beliefs and what they thought of those who held other beliefs. while calling the results of this report fact may not be completely accurate as the survey only questioned 100 owners in each of the categories (ranging from large SUV to hybrid owner), it does offer evidence of a common occurrence. Notice that I said 'more likely' instead of 'always'. Prius owners were the leader in what could be called intolerance in that they believed those who held different opinions than them could be considered "uniformed" and "ignorant". In a way, you are simply supporting my information, as you are assuming that, because I point out something that you disagree with, I am just interested in causing trouble and don't care about credibility. I don't have a problem with you questioning or disagreeing with my information, however, please do so in a way that at least suggests some openness to a view that you don't believe in.

as for my username and other post, I'm, proud of my suburban as I'm sure you are of your prius and I don't have any problem buying gas for a car that I like, consequently, my mpg's are not really an issue. I posted them to try to remind other forum members that there are other drivers on the road who have places to be and would rather not be stuck behind somebody who is more concerned with their digital mpg display than they are with being courteous towards other drivers and at least going the speed limit.
I don't have a problem with you disagreeing with what I say, the reason I am on this forum is actually to get to know different opinions.

 

Sorry, it's not a matter of intolerance of your views. If you spend some time reading my posts you'll see I'm quite tolerant.

But you weren't inviting open dialog. You said nothing in your first two posts about your views, about wanting to learn those of others, or of encouraging courtesy on the road. Instead you bragged about getting 10 MPG in the "I beat the EPA" thread and you cite as fact an unverifiable study in the "Prius myths" thread. In the process you came across as trollish. Of that I am intolerant. Your user name, though not trollish like others we've seen, isn't exactly reassuring. It's OK by me to be proud of your vehicle, but we've seen lots of names along the lines of "HummersRock" and "MyHemiIsTheBomb" from those whose sole goal is trolling and flamebaiting.

OK, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I'll accept at face value that what you say here is sincere. Now, back it up with constructive dialog -- in another thread. We're off topic here.

 

So basically you made an account here because you got stuck behind a slow driving Prius. Got it.

I love when I'm going 40 in a 35 and one of these folks driving their tanks still is riding my nice person and getting visibly upset.

 

I work at toyota dealership in vandalia ohio checking with the service department it cost 3500.00 to have battery replaced that includes parts and labor.
We have been selling prius' since the 2000 we are yet to replace a battery on any prius. We have taken them in on trade with well over 100k NONE have had any problem with the battery

 

Happiness

thanks a lot , bump up up up!!

 

Manufacturing Costs

In response to mhellmer, manufacturing costs are indeed a vital sign of Prius value.


According to mhellmer’s table, the hybrid Prius falls below cars such as the Corvette, Aston Martin, and even the Civic hybrid. This is discouraging.


How will Toyota compete with emerging hybrid cars in the American automobile market (i.e., Ford, Chevy)?

One way to cut down manufacturing costs is to reduce selling price which can become competitive with smart advertising. Right now the Prius has several advantages over other hybrids and even other cars:

1. mileage (“miles-per-gallon†index)
2. Toyota’s engineering
3. a catchy name
4. leadership in the eco-vehicle industry


So right now, the Prius may be a status symbol only while fossil fuels are still abundant.

There’s nothing wrong with purchasing a status symbol if you are wealthy. However, consider that fossil fuels are diminishing in abundance, so manufacturing methods of Priuses (and other hybrids) will streamline and change, altering costs and prices. There’s no good reason not to debate this now.


Maybe Toyota could manufacture a diesel eco-friendly car?

 

Had someone ask me at a gas station the other day if I thought I was smarter than he was. I said "absolutely...but it has nothing to do with what I drive".

 

i also wonder what the allure of the prius is. i had a 2001 insight that i drove into the ground, got over 100,000 miles on it. the car died when hurricane force winds dropped an oak tree on it.

i averaged about 60 mpg in that little sucker.

it was a simple car that was small, light, and had a manual transmission. it was what i thought hybrids were supposed to be.

the prius is a jumble of computers, high tech, buzzers, and screens. that's what i don't like about it (and that goes for both generations).

if toyota wanted to make a yaris or an iQ hybrid--i'd sign up for that. i just don't like how hybrids have shifted to such a overblown tech market, that's all. i'm more for a car that's transparent in how it operates.

 

If Toyota makes a 100% electric iQ That would get my motor rollin

 

I would like to address:

• 100% Electric
• Simpler Hybrid Design
• Other Hybrid Designs

100% Electric

The problem is energy density and that is driven by the oxidizing reactant. A battery oxidizes one electrode by reducing the other. Today's batteries are sealed so the oxidizing and reducing electrodes are the same collection of atoms when charged or discharged. So there is no change in mass as a function of state of charge.

The air-fuel batteries including the fuel cell, do not carry the oxidizer, they grab it from the air. Later, they toss the discharged chemistry overboard, the water. So the state of charge of any air-fuel battery is given by the mass of the unreacted electrode be it hydrogen, zinc, iron or any other battery electrode that can be oxidized.

Although a heat engine is driven by different, chaotic chemistry, it converts chemical energy into mechanical energy and again, tosses the by-products out the exhaust pipe. The functional equivalent to the state of charge is the mass of fuel in the tank.

So when we compare a sealed, oxidizing and reducing electrode battery to either the air-fuel or heat engines, the sealed batteries will always have lower energy density. This means you won't get the range on batteries that you can with these other opportunistic energy sources that take oxygen from the air and may or may not toss the exhausted reactants back into the environment.

Simpler Hybrid Design

As a general rule, simpler is always better but that tends to fall down when variable loads come into play. If you design a system to run at just one setting or speed, you can optimize the design and achieve amazing efficiencies. Thus large bulk carrier ships are able to transport huge amounts great distances very efficiently. But if the speeds and directions have to change a lot, it gets ugly very quickly.

Today we have terribly more complex computer systems than ever existed before with software to match. What the Toyota hybrid systems have achieved is a way to do in software what used to take very complex, mechanical analog systems to accomplish. Instead of building amazingly precise carburators and horribly complex automatic transmissions, simple actuators following computer control do it all. Best of all, they adjust as they wear to stay in peak efficiency until they just can not run any longer.

What this means is the Prius has fewer mechanical parts yet the reliability is as high if not higher than the competition. Furthermore, is terribly efficient. Best of all, software replication is a lot cheaper than trying to make precision parts.

Other Hybrid Designs

Depending upon the mission, hybrids need to be designed for the work they are going to engage in. For example, a hybrid garbage truck needs to optimize start-stop say 10-15 times in a block and that would be a different design from a vehicle that may go multiple blocks before stopping and starting. In short, one size does not fit all.

I'm a firm believer in the right tool for the right job and don't see other hybrid designs as being an "either-or" but rather overlapping the mission of a hybrid. If you need to carry 10 people about, it is a different design from a commuter only vehicle that may have just two seats. But also realize there is a big difference between "PowerPoint Engineering" and real products. Don't be fooled by the "Beta" versions of a hybrid.

CONCLUSIONS

I don't fault anyone for wanting to see 'something better' for that is the path to progress. But speculation is a lot easier than hard work of making product. Yes, imagination comes first but it must be followed up with a product, one that works. Otherwise, speculation becomes just another form of idleness.

Bob Wilson

 

Hi Electric...,

I always get a kick out of people with your opinion. Have you ever had a transmission from a standard car apart on your bench? There is not anything uncomplicated about them (double negative used for emphasis). They are very high tech in many ways, but mostly to do with the subtle details of forces and mechanical stack-up.

Its only because the parts are bigger than a transistor in a microprosesor chip that these things have been around longer. And its only because of computers (in CNC machines) that they continue to be cheap, and not outrageously expensive.

The Prius has a complicated system diagram, but a automatic transmission car has a complicated transmission. Even a manual transmission is not something you can give a high school graduate to disassemble, with any hope of getting it back together and run 100K miles. It takes some additional training.

The Prius transmission, if you take out the motors, is about the most mechanically simple power transfer device on any modern car.