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sanctimonious: Feigning piety or righteousness:

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Main Forum' started by Tweev, Jul 17, 2008.

  1. Tweev

    Tweev New Member

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    OK, this will probably get me flamed pretty badly but I was on the edge to buy a Prius ($1000 below invoice in Feb) but I decided against it. Not for the reasons I outline below but it just wasn't the right time.

    To give some context of where I'm coming from. Just so people don't think I drive a hummer. - I'm mid-30's; made living choices so I don't have to buy a car; and am in the conservation biology field (ie tree-hugging enviroweiny)

    I've been reading the current prices of Prius's and I don't understand why there is such a high demand for Prius's. You don't save any money over the life time of a prius is you spend 3 grand over MSRP. Bravo for the dealers getting that much (ironically I see Priuschat users cheer each other when they get below MSRP but scream bloody murder if a dealer dares ask for more than MSRP - Why is it OK for buyers to take advantage of a dealers need to make end-of-month quotas but not OK for dealers to exploit high demand times -- seems a little hypocritical).

    1) Cost saving of a Prius: Borderline at current gas prices and assuming you buy it at MSRP. I think the most comparable vehicle to a Prius is not the Camry as most people say but more a Honda Fit or a Yaris. I think Fits costs about 10K less than a Prius -- that's a lot of gas - about 2500 gallons over the life time of the car - or basically free 75 000 miles of distance.

    2) Environmental benefits: Slight. Sure they get about 50% better milage than the Fit or Yaris but really, lets be a little honest here... it's like someone boasting that they hit their wife with an open hand rather than a closed fist and saying they are doing them a favour.
    The real environmental heros are the people who:
    1) Don't have kids;
    2) Are vegetarians;
    3) live in high density housing;
    4) Bike/walk to work;
    5) Use transit
    etc...
    Buying a hybrid vehicle is so far down the list of pro-enviro list it's rediculous. It's like someone patting themselves on the back for recycling 80% of their cans and looking down on people who only recycle 60%. Someone who drives 20000 miles a year in a Hummer but didn't have kids has such a massively less overall carbon footprint than a Prius owner with two kids. I mean C'mon!

    Anyway, I don't mean to be rude but I really don't get it . Basically, I think the prius crowd is the same as the iphone crowd. Both are techy-fun indulgences and that's about it. That's OK. I'm buying an iPhone, they're cool but I not going to proclaim that I'm saving the planet by doing so. A little less sanctamony and self-congradulatory back patting would be a little more honest.

    Another thing, what's with the circa 1980 graphics on the display?? - I hope they update that for the Gen 3. That needs a serious over haul.
     
  2. MsDaisy

    MsDaisy Goddess of Green-land

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    Jeez...talk about sanctimonious. Pot meet kettle.
     
  3. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

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    Tweev's got a point, to a point. In a way, we're not really 'saving' the planet, we're just killing it more slowly.

    But I wouldn't go so far as to call it sanctimonious, because most people have good intentions. If they're using significantly less gas than in their previous vehicle, then that's progress. And it's not just the gas savings that matter - look at the differences in emissions, too. I don't think the Yaris comparison is really valid. By the same argument, I couldn't justify a bicycle over a new pair of shoes. Many people have been inspired by their purchase to make other changes in their lives, like composting, recycling, saving energy at home, and starting to grow their own food. So no, it's not just a "techy-fun indulgence". And why would you buy an iPhone? Other phones are much cheaper, and you'll never make up the difference. ;)
     
  4. a priori

    a priori Canonus Curiosus

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    OK, Tweev, I'll bite.

    You just don't get it -- at least ALL of it. Sure, there are many ways to do better things for the environment than to replace one car with a Prius.

    Your comparisons range from the meaningless, through the absurd, to the offensive. I'll just assume the wife-beating comparison can be dropped and that you won't feel a need to bring that one back up.

    You can compare the Prius to the Yaris or Fit, but very, very few Prius owners will say those were the cars they considered as options. Take a look at the thread What Car Did You Drive Before Your Prius? and see what comparisons people were making.

    As far as your heroes of environmentalism are concerned, I can't see that you've done much more than express your interests and concerns. Is this any different than those of us on PriusChat expressing our view of things? Let's not be hypocritical on this one.

    If you are suggesting our highest environmental goals and virtues include urban living and childless lifestyles, then I wonder who in the world will be raising the crops to support our food demands? Who will be the next generation to continue this work? Who will take care of the elderly when there are only elderly?

    There are plenty of us on PriusChat who are just as selfish as the next folks. I don't see many cries for recognition as saints. Most people just want to express how much they enjoy the Prius they've purchased. If we own one, we are able to spend more money on cars than most people. At the same time, we've chosen to spend that money in a way that will encourage more and more manufacturers and consumers to consider and buy cars that get not only MUCH greater mileage, but also pollute so much LESS than other cars.

    Choosing the Prius is not choosing to avoid personal transportation, and it is not denegrating public transit. Instead it is the making of a better choice when an automobile is a requirement for business and our chosen lifestyles. Can you imagine how much better off our nation will be if the hybrid vehicle and then the all-electric vehicle become the standard? How will that happen if there are not highly-enthused owners of these vehicles who are willing to share the benefits (and costs) of the use of such cars?

    Please stick around a bit longer to learn more about this community. Share about your interests and learn about ours.
     
  5. Tweev

    Tweev New Member

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    The Iphone is a weiny-techy indulgence. You can get skype over free Wi-Fi and calling and long distance is borderline free so you could argue if you are making a lot of international long distance (which I am not) you could save a lot using an i-phone.

    The "echo"-ing effect of environmental stewardship is an interesting point. Do you really think it's valid? I'm involved with a number of environmental organizations and many of the programs end up being a lot of "preaching to the converted". I would think dropping an extra 6-8 grand has to be either a pretty strong emotional reaction or maybe just poor math skills.
     
  6. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    The cost savings at MSRP have been well documented in several studies. A search of this site will give you the sources. The rest is just gravy.

    As for whether you are willing to pay over MSRP, that's a personal decision. For some it's worth it, just like some people buy BMWs, and some don't.

    Tom
     
  7. Tweev

    Tweev New Member

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    If you are suggesting our highest environmental goals and virtues include urban living and childless lifestyles, then I wonder who in the world will be raising the crops to support our food demands?
    -- Immigrants? I thought there was a global over population problem and there are limits to growth? If the planet is actually infinite, please let us know.

    Who will be the next generation to continue this work?
    --See above

    Who will take care of the elderly when there are only elderly?
    --See above

    I don't see many cries for recognition as saints.
    -- I see a fair number - just look at the cries of recognition on how stupid the 'Dust to dust' article -- it is stupid by the way.

    Most people just want to express how much they enjoy the Prius they've purchased. If we own one, we are able to spend more money on cars than most people.
    -- I agree, it's a techy indulgence that has little to do with any environmental benefit.

    At the same time, we've chosen to spend that money in a way that will encourage more and more manufacturers and consumers to consider and buy cars that get not only MUCH greater mileage, but also pollute so much LESS than other cars.
    -- If that were true you could buy a much cheaper car and give the money to support R&D of green technologies. That would be much more effective.

    Instead it is the making of a better choice when an automobile is a requirement for business and our chosen lifestyles.
    -- Exactly, just as owning a hummer is a chosen lifestyle. See kettle-black comment.

    Can you imagine how much better off our nation will be if the hybrid vehicle and then the all-electric vehicle become the standard? How will that happen if there are not highly-enthused owners of these vehicles who are willing to share the benefits (and costs) of the use of such cars?
    -- Maybe by about 2%. Can you imagine if people used transit, outlawed urban sprawl, made sustainable communities. It may actually do something!

    Please stick around a bit longer to learn more about this community. Share about your interests and learn about ours.
    -- I will. I enjoy reading the Prius vs Cyclist rants. Oddly similar to the hummer vs prius rants. Coincidence?
     
  8. a priori

    a priori Canonus Curiosus

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    Stop for a moment and listen (and read).

    Your iPhone techy indulgence is just fine, but other peoples' indulgences are not. Hmm. Poor math skills on that one. My phone continues to work just fine. The battery life is slipping, but why drop $199 and increase my monthly charges for that phone. It can't make calls any better than can my current phone. And -- I won't be throwing something useful into the trash! I'm saving hundreds of dollars as compared to you. Obviously, I've made the better choice.

    "Dropping an extra 6-8 grand"? What? The car I traded in was worth almost as much as the new Prius I bought -- and I had purchased that prior car used. If I had bought another car, I would have spent more money for the luxury and "techy" gadgets I enjoy. The Prius actually cost me less than other cars -- it cost less than the minivan we have for our self-indulgent, anti-environmental family of parents and children.

    Yep, you hit a nerve on that one.

    Look for ways to encourage positive environmental change. You are doing great things, as far as I can tell. Learning more about the Prius and its owners would be a good addition to the other activities in your life.
     
  9. freshmtt

    freshmtt Dachshund Addict

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    Great response!!!! I agree with everything you said.

    Tweev, I don't own an iphone, I have a regular ole cheapy cell phone, no frills and don't want an iphone. I won't stand in line for hours having to be the first person to buy one. I bought my car to save money first and foremost and the environmental factor second, I would like to say the environmental factor was my first reason, but it is just about equal. I, by choice don't want to live in a high rise urban environment so I can avoid needing a car. The number one reason is I hate urban living and hate the congestion, If I could live in the middle of the countryside and have my closest neighbor or store miles away I would be a very happy person. I am just so sick and tired of the rat race that I don't want to be anywhere near a big city. Unfortunately, I have no choice right now to work in downtown Chicago and commute by train, and I live as far out in the suburbs as possible to get away from all the crime and congestion as possible.

    I'm just trying to save money and do my part in driving a vehicle that is not heavily polluting the environment.
     
  10. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

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    Not all Prius owners are the same. Yes, some of us were already 'converted', but many who bought the car solely for the gas savings are changing their attitudes and perspectives, which can only be good.

    The Prius has a lower total cost of ownership than most cars. The resale is going up, too, don't forget, so that 'extra 6-8 grand' is just an imaginary number.

    So, Tweev, while I admire your bravery in standing up at a Prius forum and calling us idiots, I think you should brush up on your math skills. :brushteeth:
     
  11. mcfly2

    mcfly2 New Member

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    I believe that the current demand for the Prius is a knee-jerk reaction to the recent high jump in gas prices. I think for the most part people want it now because it gets the best gas mileage out of everything available at the moment. Even though you may spend more right now, at least that's a known amount. Since the future of gas prices is unknown, it's unknown how much you'll eventually save, so with the Prius you have the least amount of risk. I don't think the environment is of much concern to the knee-jerkers.
     
  12. Tweev

    Tweev New Member

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    Wow, everyone really bit on that iphone comment. I admit, it bold hypocrisy. I just thought I would point out that I realize the techy indulgence lure and I am guilty as everyone. Also, I think human suffering is bad, yet I bought lunch at work rather than bringing my own. I could use the $4 premium for buying lunch on vacinations for poor people in Africa. Do I think human suffering is really that much of an issue? My actions point to my hypocracy and suggest that I apparently do not, yet I say that I do. It's the same about people who say the environment is a high priority yet live 40 miles out of town and somehow think buying a Prius puts them as an overall positive.

    I'm not calling Prius owners idiots at all. I think it's a pretty fun car, I drove one for months - it's fine. I just think the pat-on-the-back that many (not all) give themselves for their aparant care for the environment is a little thick to swallow.

    I would think that considering a Prius as an appreciating assett is a poor model to follow.
     
  13. Highly ImPriused

    Highly ImPriused Impressive Member

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    For those of us who have made the poor environmental decision of having kids, the Fit and Yaris really aren't reasonable comps. The Prius is a great mid-size family car (unlike the two compacts you mentioned) and it saves lots of money at the pump. That it also helps lessen our dependence on oil ever so slightly is gravy for me. I'm much happier to see more of my money going toward the technology than to the oil companies.
     
  14. galaxee

    galaxee mostly benevolent

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    you don't know what people's motivations or living situations are. maybe people are doing the best they can for the situation. did that ever occur to you?

    it's not like selling your house is easy these days, and if you haven't noticed the job market is just a little shaky lately as well. you never know what that combination will do to people's willingness to drive.
     
  15. freshmtt

    freshmtt Dachshund Addict

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    I don't think the Prius is an appreciating asset and certainly don't think any car is an appreciating asset. Maybe for my own purposes it is an asset in the form of saving me gas money, but not for any other purpose.
     
  16. thepolarcrew

    thepolarcrew Senior Member

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    I'll bite! just a casual observation. First of all I think you are a glory hound! It isn't about being a HERO!

    To me it's supply vs demand.

    My wife is a care giver for people at the end of their days! She put on 40K on our 07 @ 18 - 20mpg. Now we put on 40K with 40 - 45mpg. The only thing see gets is love! We usually put on 150K on our vehicles, do the math!

    We raise organic veggies, don't use harsh chems, free range birds, (eggs and meat taste great) the birds keep the mosquitoes down (helps with west nile) we recycle and compost.

    1) your social skills with the opposite sex seems to be lacking
    2) How much and where do the chemicals for your veggies come from or how much do you spend on organic. They have to be transported, I would imagine by a diesle truck.
    3) Living in high density area might be cool, but there is a lot of wasted energy there. Not to mention crime. All that pavement causing global warming.
    4) is cool
    5) What about those buses you ride, diesel I will bet, how many real riders?

    Add it up hero!
     
  17. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

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    It is, in the long run. I was only using the fact of currently rising prices for used Prius to point out the fallacy of your "Prius is more expensive" claim.

    At first glance, it may seem paradoxical to buy a car and then declare moral superiority, but you have to consider the individual and their situation. Chances are good they are making positive changes, and people should be encouraged to do that. Berating them for not being as high and mighty on the environmental totem pole as they could be isn't going to help.

    And thanks for not calling us idiots.
     
  18. freshmtt

    freshmtt Dachshund Addict

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    Did it ever occur to you that for people that care about the environment might want to actually live in a place where they can enjoy the environment? Like smell fresh air, hear birds, have trees around them, have some grass under their feet. What kind of tree-hugging environmentalist wants to live in the middle of a concrete jungle and smell nothing but exhaust fumes, hearing nothing but police sirens, fire engines, and see nothing but brick and cement and instead of bird watching are watching people shoot and murder each other.

    I think I'll continue living as far away from downtown as possible and commute to work on my Electric train everyday. :yo:
     
  19. mcfly2

    mcfly2 New Member

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    It's quite possible to arrange your life so that you live in the place you describe, and also have minimal needs for a car. I think the OP's point is that the 40 mile commuters shouldn't put themselves on a pedestal because they drive a Prius.
     
  20. ForTheGlory

    ForTheGlory New Member

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    Walking, biking or taking public transportation to work simply aren't options for a majority of Americans. The Prius is currently the most environmentally-friendly option for those who require a car.