Trading my Prius for an Xterra

is this a joke?

CO2 is dirty? as we speak TONS of CO2 is released naturally from the oceans, as we speak CO2 is being released from your body...and you are concerned about measuring the amount of CO2 coming out of a car? Every car has its vices including our beloved hybrids which need raw materials. I'd prefer naturally occurring CO2 rather than having the effects of nickel mining if I had a choice. How are trees to even breathe without CO2? What is the harm in a few more units? I'm not saying you need to worry all night about nickel mining but maybe you can see how both sides have their "vices".

the Prius is not a performance automobile which is why I am so excited to see an offering from BMW with this performance - I'd love to get out of a hybrid and into a BMW diesel...I don't care if I spend 4% more on fuel if I get 90% more performance with a quality interior. Hell even the IS series from Lexus admittedly is very close but not quite as good as the 3 series. (Though the newest IS probably is...btw the IS is an impressive piece and I hope we get an IS hybrid) so of course people will be excited when a BMW can get this kind of mileage while offering handling and power rather then 0-60 in 21 seconds

and if BMW does this then Lexus will release a diesel IS to compete and things will get REALLY good for us consumers maybe we'll even get a diesel hybrid IS...talk about a dream car! or even a plug in EV IS with ISF suspension

 

I'm sorry but you sound like a Neaderthal. It has to have loud noises, catchy gears, bone-jarring suspension, and rumble your body to be enjoyable? What decade are we living in again? lol I understand this is what you like and I have no problem with that but there are those of us who have had it with the type of vehicle you describe and want something entirely different.

I'm not going to get into the environmental/pollution arguments in here. If you want to learn about that field please visit the environmental forum and do a search or feel free to start a new post.

 

You are obviously not doing the research. See the stickies provided for you at the top of the "Hybrid news" and "Technical" forums. Then do a search in the environmental section as I described above. You are overlooking imprtant factors in the CO2 equation and thus are wrong in your overall assumptions.

 

until they go broke.

 

I care about DD growing up and being able to breathe -
I care more about DD's future children being able to breath in this polluted petrie dish we call planet earth.

Right now a Prius is my best choice.
I hope I have better choices in the next few years.

 

F8L.
i am disspointed in your childlish phrases. you misunderstood me.

i will explain. i am a racing hobbiest. the tesla roadster is a race car type electic car.

i do not drive my m3 on the street, nor would i drive the tesla. it is meant for nurnburg ring, the largest public race track in the world.

the green hell as locals call it, this is where such cars are meant to be driven.

you do not understand what i am saying. for daily driving, everyone loves comfort.
however this is racing! understand! pleasure driving! this is something america does not understand as it considers NASCAR racing. it is not.



this is where one wants a raw race car. the tesla is an amazing car, just too much like taking a golf carriage on the track.... no fun!

driving to the europeans is fun. transportation it is not neccessary! there are trains, busses for such things. the enviornmentalists do not own cars here, period. no need. cars are a thing of entertainment to germans.

 

Apparently my attempt at humor was lost on you. It happens. *shrug*

I've owned plenty of performance vehicles in my life so I'm no novice to "A true driving experience". I've been racing since 1993 and I have many friends with M3s, 360 Modenas, and other exotics. I've ran a LS1-based car club for 4yrs and even my ex-girlfriend drove an '02 M5. I could quite literally walk into the garage right now and take a 419rwhp '02 Zo6 Corvette for a spin if I chose to. The point is, what is good for Germans may not be good for the rest of the world. Why are you spreading incorrect info regarding air pollution when everything you just wrote above has nothing to do with the United States nor it's NEED to reduce air pollution? You seem to think adding pollution is ok as long as you can have fun, I disagree completely. This is why I sold my race cars and dedicated my life to studying subjects similar to this and working for changes that will help make a positive contribution to the wellbeing of humanity, not a negative one like many in this thread seem to enjoy doing.

 

Good fer yoooooou!

 

you still dont seem to understand. the m3 i own gets maybe, 150 kilometers per month put onto it? 123d, maybe 1000 KM per month? max?

the carbon footprint left is so small.... whats the need to rid yourself of the fun cars??? i dont see it!
the 123 is a pure economy sports car, happens to get 45 MPG autobahn.
whats the harm in that?

you are pushing pennies with me. saying the race car is such a detriment yet it uses so few resourses to run. you are fighting the wrong war. im just trying to say there are more options for economy than just the prius.

it is foolish to believe one entity can provide you with everything you need. if you believe this way then you must be from USSR.

im sorry if i got off topic into racing. this is my hobby, it usess VERY little fuel to conduct. maybe one gas tank a month.

maybe just trying to let you know its OK to use some gas for fun... as long as its a small small amount. i dont take my cars to eat! i walk! or possibly use electric train! as a matter of fact WHENEVER i do something social i never drive! one will be consuming alchohol beverages and must not drive! see the beauty of public transportation then....

so to you americans fun is going out on friday night, to some germans its going to driving course on sunday. the amount of fuel used is comparable perhaps less in my case, so why the downtalk? i dont even take my car daily to work. some days use train, and ALWAYS carpool with 2 cooworkers. they enjoy the diesel auto.

you see in reality and this is why i am now irritated, conservation is just part of daily life in europe. it is not some new thing that is uber trendy, and one car defines it. it is not political, etc.. it just how it is! we do so much more than the average green american here, you must drive you car to work, and often, no ride sharing! tisk!
hypocritical now comes to mind. good night!

 

This has what to do with the United States or any other country that personal transportation plays a large part of the fuel consumption puzzle? No, I did not miss the point. I'm not trying to be mean.

Make sure you compare apples to apples when comparing fuel effiency. MPG should be stated as Imperial or U.S. MPG and diesel vs gasoline because they are different in their overall efficiency from extraction to combustion.

 

There's nothing wrong with it - except for the fact that you continue to insist that it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. And that nothing else - even what is considered the pinnacle of "green" sports cars, the Tesla, compares.

Maybe it's something that comes from your understanding of the English language, but that is not all you are saying at all.

Hmmm, look in the mirror much?

That is more fuel than what many people here burn in an entire month.

Good for you!

Oh, so Germans are much better at being "green" than us Americans. Thanks. Really.

Funny, I was thinking the same thing.

 

And less than some consume in minutes, what are you even trying to prove with that statement? That he's bad for doing that? Some people believe in human sacrifice, that make it right just because some people think that?

Some of you are just such the gift to man, saving the world and all.

 

I took his statement to conclude that the amount of fuel being burned for fun in that circumstance is very wasteful. Is there a problem with that conclusion?

Some people actually care about other humans and the ecosystems that we rely on. If you do not feel the same then fine but please take your piss poor commentary somewhere else.

 

This would be a prime candidate for a thread lock if there was one!

 

I am afraid it is you who has overlooked - this AGW :blah: that I read does not account for irrational CO2 concerns I'm afraid. When you have jets releasing tons and tons and tons and volcanos and the Ocean releasing even MORE then how can you say that I should be concerned over a few units more released by a car? For what purpose when people fly jets? Do you know that in Hong Kong people take helicopters to Macau to gamble? Everyday! They could take the ferries but some just do that to save time. Now, you tell me, with this going on why should I be concerned about my cars CO2 output? That is assuming CO2 was really harmful...I'm sorry but today it just is not a factor for individuals buying cars when you have bigwigs flying jets that output hundreds, thousands and even MILLIONS times more in one flight then average w. citizens do in even a decade of driving. It's crazy to be concerned over 30 vs 42 vs 57 units per gallon. We should be concentrating on saving/rebuilding rain forests to consume CO2 instead of harrassing normal citizens while bigwigs take incredibly wasteful private jets and helicopters. They should be free to just as we are free to choose our cars.

Is this not silly? I hate to sound mean but it seems silly to me when you consider the numbers.

also bbald123 why lock the thread? we can all learn here.

 

Todays Air Quality Forcast for Ozone (smog) in most of Germany: Poor
Rheinisches Institut für Umweltforschung - EURAD-Project

East German children are also apparently getting sick due to your fabulous air quality.
Air pollution and upper respiratory symptoms in children from East Germany -- von Mutius et al. 8 (5): 723 -- European Respiratory Journal

Well, the numbers I quoted are from your car with your converter.

Well, I guess thats the bottom line. If you don't care about spewing crap into the air thats one thing. Pretending that your car doesn't spew crap is another. Personally I don't consider 18 times more NOx trivial.

In the US the car would not save money either. It would be substantially more expensive upfront, much more expensive to maintain, and more expensive to fuel. The previously quoted VCA-UK page puts the 123d mileage at 50.7 combined imperial. That would about 41 mpg US. At the current US diesel price of $4.69 and US average 15,000 miles per year, your annual fuel cost would be $1715. At its EPA rating the Prius is currently $1330.

Yawn.

The current US annual CO2 output is ~13,192,326,000,000 pounds per year. Over 1/3 of that is from vehicles. Thats more than a few units.

Nickel mining is no more destructive than any other form of mining. Which is to say its pretty destructive. However, given that the average vehicle contains ~ 4000 lbs of steel and aluminum, ~50 lbs of toxic lead that must be replaced every 3-5 years, and a fair amount of nickel used in any chrome or stainless steel components I'd say the 30 lbs of nickel in a Prius is fairly irrelevant from a resource consumption or environmental damage standpoint.

29% more base don the above, assuming that the 123d doesn't lose any performance or economy in order to meet US emissions requirements. The new Jetta TDI that you will actually be able to buy here is still quite a bit dirtier than the Prius, no where near as fast as the 123d, and its annual fuel costs based on EPA will be $2131, or 60% higher. Of course at that point, you might as well get an Accord Hybrid. Its faster than the 123d, with much lower emissions and roughly the same fuel cost and CO2 output as the Jetta TDI. Of course the Accord Hybrid did so well it was canceled, so I'm not sure how that would bode for trying to introduce the smaller 123d here.

If we could just somehow average the two of you out we'd probably come out with a fairly sane viewpoint.

Rob

 

So whats the reservation about "small" car? Larger cars are just as "safe", no more because of rollover hazards.

 

Im honestly laughing right now. Did I ever once mention AGW to you in this thread? No, I did not. You are indeed missing many parts to this puzzle. I'll gladly debate you in the correct forum.

miscrms, thanks for the air quality links.

 

Small is good IMHO. But when you are comparing the relative efficiency of two vehicles it just needs to be as Apples to Apples as possible. There are a lot of design trades in vehicle design, space, weight, cost, performance, efficiency, emissions, safety etc. Trying to compare any one of those without looking at the big picture is fairly meaningless.

There are a lot of people that like to show how the Prius isn't all that great by comparing it to vehicles that are either much smaller, much dirtier, much slower, or in some other way completely irrelevant. The reality is that despite being a relatively large (from a global perspective) family sized car with very reasonable performance the Prius is one of the cleanest, most efficient vehicles available in any class (EVs excluded of course).

One of the best and fairest comparisons I've come up with recently is the well rated and liked Chevy Malibu. They cost about the same, have similar performance, similar interior room, similar safety ratings, similar reliability (maybe) and yet the Prius is much lower in emissions and uses almost half as much fuel.

----------------- '08 Malibu 1LT --- '08 Prius Base
MSRP: --------------- $21,185 ---------- $21,500
Pass. Vol. (cuft) ----- 95 ---------------- 96
Cargo Vol. (cuft) ----- 16 ---------------- 16
0-60mph -------------- <10s (Edmunds)------ 9.8s (MT)
EPA Comb MPG ---------- 25 ---------------- 46
Annual Fuel Cost ----- $2448 ------------- $1328 -- (Malibu 84% higher)
Annual CO2 (tons) ----- 7.3 --------------- 4.0 --- (Malibu 82% higher)
Annual Crude Oil(brl) - 13.7 -------------- 7.4 --- (Malibu 85% higher)
Carbon Monoxide (g/mi)- 2.5 --------------- 0.1 --- (Malibu 25 times higher)
CO US06 (aggressive) -- 7.5 --------------- 0.1 --- (Malibu 75 times higher)
CO Cold --------------- 4.2 --------------- 1.5 --- (Malibu 2.8 times higher)
Oxides of Nitrogen ---- 0.01 -------------- 0.01 -- (even)
Organic Gasses (NM) --- 0.036 ------------- 0.009 - (Malibu 4 times higher)
HydroCarbons ---------- 0.05 -------------- 0.03 -- (Malibu 67% higher)
HC US06 (aggressive)--- 0.1 --------------- 0.03 -- (Malibu 3.3 times higher)

In my mind that provides a very clear picture of the benefit the Prius is providing. All other things being equal, its a lot cleaner and cheaper to run. And it doesn't cost any more to start with. That makes a lot more sense than trying to compare the Prius to a Yaris, or a 1989 Geo Metro, or a BMW 123d IMHO.

Hopefully we'll see smaller cars with HSD like technology coming along soon. For an initial offering to establish market acceptance I think Toyota hit the nail right on the head (at least for the US market). Since the Prius can already approach the economy of any econobox diesel anywhere in the world, imagine what a Prius half the size could do!

Rob

 

True. What you do makes almost no difference. However, when combined with what the other 6,602,224,174 (6.6B ) people on the planet choose to do the effect is huge. If we each as individuals don't decide to start making smart choices, why would everyone else?

Since we as Americans currently account for 25% of the worlds overall energy usage, and 25% of the worlds oil consumption despite only having ~4.5% of the worlds population I'd say we probably have a little room for improvement with regards to the personal choices we make. If we don't trim back our usage, how we can expect other nations not to aspire to the same level of waste?

If every American traded their 22mpg US average car/truck for a Prius we would reduce LDV fuel consumption by 52%. Given that LDV fuel use in the US is ~140B gallons per year, we could save 72,800,000,000 (72.8B ) gallons of fuel per year or about 1.7B barrels of oil per year. Given that our entire annual oil import from OPEC is 2B barrels of oil per year, if every American was willing to make that sacrifice we would be 85% to the goal of giving OPEC the finger just from this one action. This would also account for a 22% reduction in our overall oil consumption and the CO2 emissions that result.

I'm doing my part, are you?

Rob