Gas is still too cheap

Gas has always been expensive, but we don't price it that way. If we added in all the environmental costs to get the true, full cost picture, and compared it to other forms of energy, we'd likely find that oil is the most expensive, least efficient option. If energy prices reflected that, we wouldn't be in this mess.

 

I'm so sick of people blaming environmentalists. The case for wind turbines was based on environmental groups protesting against poor design that did not take wildlife into consideration. With updated designs loss of avian life is minimal (according to better studies) and most agree completely acceptable. I work with members of the local chapter of the Audobon Society and the never badmouth wind power when the topic comes up. Do you have case studies or reports that detail a circumstance where wind power contract was denied because of environmentalists? I'll concede I could be wrong but I'd at least like to see evidence of current issues like this.

 

I absolutely agree with you here, Pat. Though I'm not sure just who you're responding to.

I hear this all the time... no more taxes... but fix the problems!

 

Yes, I should have said "cheap at the pump" which is all that is normally considered. Of course your point here is one that I make ad noseam. We have no free market, and we do NOT pay the cost of gas at the pump. I'd love to have a truly free market where everything was charged for the damage it does. If only it were that easy.

 

Ah, you beat me to it. I'm a bit tired of it as well. It seems to just be in the common lore now that any alternative is going to be challenged by "environmentalists." And while all alternatives DO need to be assessed (like hey, is H2 better for the environment than batteries?) and compared, that doesn't mean that "environmentalists" are keeping alternatives from us. We just need to understand the consequences. It has become a rallying cry for many who hold all "environmentalists" in contempt, I'm afraid. "We'd like to do this great, great thing, but those dang environmentalists won't let us."

And so we keep burning gas.

 

This is arguing against my basic position, but Cape Wind in Mass, including the Kennedy clan amongst others. Western Maine ridge wind. This is a case of some us us having our NIMBY overriding our environmental credentials... I admit to all who will listen, I too have been know to be a hypocrite at times too.

Icarus

 

I share the same exact opinion my friend. I know Hyo and I share similar opinions as well. It seems everyone wants to point a finger and not accept any amount of blame. Environmentalists generally make the best (or most used) target for such blame because they used to be on the fringe and were, as such, easy to ridicule because they usually didn't have a lot of data to back up their claims. Now that they do it is getting harder and harder to refute those claims and those who continually do are the ones who are starting to look "kooky" and will hopefully end up on the fringe.

More and more people are starting to read the data and come to an understanding that being an evironmentalist doesn't mean wearing ratty clothing, eating tofu and sporting dreadlocks that smell of incense. Being an environmentalists means you understand our place in this world and that we rely on the environment 100% to sustain our economic, asthetic, and socials needs and wellbeing. As such, you do you best to live lightly and make educated decisions for the future.

 

Oh yes. That situation is a poster-child for this very problem. And you'll notice that in my post above, I put "environmentalist" in quotes every time I could remember. In cases like this, the people are NOT acting like environmentalists even though they may have that label. There are times when we're all caught like that... but we typically don't get as much publicity. This isn't a case of environmentalists against innovation, it is - as you say - a serious case of overriding NIMBY.

 

Panicing can be done instantly.
Getting Educated takes some time and effort.
Executing takes more time and more effort.

One of the reasons for being on Prius Chat is to get education from a lot of people taking the time to post both informed and intelligent responses. Unfortunately, what gets most of the airplay sometimes are the ones who none of the above. Do not get sidetracked.

The Panic is occuring for some.
The Education phase is starting for some, finishing for me.
Now for the execution.

 

SDG&E wants to put high power lines through Rancho Penasquitos, Ramona, Poway, Scripps Ranch, Carmel Valley and through 23 miles of Anza Borrego State Park. (This despite the fact several of our last bad fires come from high power electrical lines. I'm sure this wasn't lost on the residents of Scripps Ranch) People want them buried. SDG&E cries poverty. People want them re-routed. SDG&E cries poverty. There are 7 proposed route. This one Sempra is pushing is rated the second worst.

"SDG&E's proposed route through Anza-Borrego, California's largest state park, ranked second worst among seven possible routes studied by state and federal regulators for environmental damage.

The plan calls for 141 towers through the park at an average height of 130 feet. (Some as tall as 160 ft.) The entire route would include 554 towers from the wind-swept desert of the Imperial Valley to a site near the Pacific Ocean in San Diego."

They're pushing it as green but in fact it's to bring in power from their coal-powered plants in Mexico (exempt from U.S. regulations.) They advertise that their Sunrise Powerlink "Superhighway" is for bringing in Solar generated electricity from future construction in the east. Somehow the Mexican coal-fired plants aren't mentioned in all of SDG&E's "green" P.R.

So...if they can undersground 7 miles of the 120....why not all of it? Reduce impact on Anza Borrego State Park, animals, etc. Oh, right. It's because they're too cheap.

UCAN is against it.

BTW their position is "my way or the highway, we don't care what you think we're going to do it anyway." The hearings are just because they want to widen the easement corridor they already have and build some substations.

Southern California Edison has a much better plan.

And of course Awnold is sticking is nose in it pressuring regulators to just sign off on it. Thanks a lot Awnold. Champion of the people...NOT.

"Sempra donated $25,000 to Schwarzenegger's 2007 inaugural committee, state records show. In 2004, the company gave the governor a $50,000 political contribution, which he returned due to a pending lawsuit between Sempra and the state." (Anyone remember his promise not to take special interest money?)

In the meantime, Sempra Energy won't pay me for any extra power my PV array generates.

 

With all the thousands and thousands of words written on this thread there are few words on how the poor and elderly will survive with not just gas and home heating oil, but on the rising prices of food and essentials. Without a program firmly in place to protect the unfortunate from rising gas prices, any happiness is shameful on your part.

 

Well, I guess the elderly should have saved more and planned better for their twilight years.

The poor are only poor because they're lazy. Let them get a second or third job. Let them get a better job.

According to McCain...they can pick lettuce in Arizona for $50 an hour.

After all, it's not the Government's job to support freeloaders. That would be.....Socialism.

 

This is where taxing or tiered pricing on fuel becomes tricky. If it were as easy as electricity to set up a tier program that "punishes" those who use more than a specified level then we would have at least a partial bandaid until we can come up with better methods of production, usage, transport, etc. etc. I do not wish pain on anyone. I just think there are ways these people will not suffer but we have to get our asses in gear and make big changes.

I am one of those "poor" individuals. I work 2 jobs and attend classes. I rent a room from a friend and his wife. I scrape by on $2,008/mo during the summer and much less during the school semester with some aid from small scholarships and FASFA (only when taking classes). My car is paid off but and I have great credit but if it were not for the graciousness of my friends, hard work, and some Gov. aid I'd be in a really bad place. My point is, I do feel the economic slump accutely. I love my life no matter what income bracket I am categorized in.

 

I take a bit of issue with your premise. First, I address such concern early on in the thread. (If memory serves,,,it's been a while!) The simple fact is those that understand the problem and are modifying their behavior are doing more to reduce the demand for and ergo the price of energy.

If you recognize that this is a world wide issue, you recognize that there is little governments can do to reduce the price of energy. On the other hand governments can do, and indeed IMHO have a duty to help the less able amongst us. The first thing our governments (which I still believe is us) is accept the hard political and economic reality up front. To berate Obama for telling the truth, "We won't see $3 gas again" as though he could with the swipe of a pen change that fact only fans the flames of misinformation. If governments continue to whistle past the grave yard with their head in the sand only makes the plight of the poor even worse.

The next thing governments can do is encourage conservation through grant and loans so that poor homeowners can up grade their homes, with CFL's better insulation, Hi-ef appliances, upgraded furnaces etc. The poor are trapped in that they can't afford to upgrade their homes, but they can't afford not to. For example, a new modern fridge will use ~1/4 the energy of a fridge 15 years old. The up front cost of say ~$800 is beyond many even though the payoff is less than 3 years. (For citation, I did a killawatt test on my sister in laws fridge and discovered a payoff in less than 2 years!).

The next thing governments can do is spend real money on real mass transit, and if needed subsidize the ridership. Giving someone a pass to ride a metro cost society way less than the energy wasted in old cars stuck in commutes. The net reduction in fuel use is then reflected in the cost of fuel.

The next thing governments can do is encourage alternative energy installation in homes and multiple units. Solar domestic hot water has a very fast payback even without subsidy. PV solar is competitive with grid power with less "cost" than more coal or gas fired plants.

The next thing would be to encourage a change over from oil to natural gas, and price it (gas) accordingly. In some areas natural gas is flared off because it is not cost effective to ship it to a market. So we are burning fuel for no gain, PLUS we have the Co2 emissions to go along with it.

"Conservatives" don't like many of these ideas, because they smack of socialism. The fact is that we subsidize many industries already, but we call it something else. I call it unplanned, disorganized wasteful wellfare for Corps. Everything from coal mining to railways to airlines to trucking get subsidies and no one want to talk about if they make sense. But talk about spending public money to solve perhaps the biggest problem facing us in the coming century is just selfish.

Finally, governments can and should come up with short term plans to help the poor in coming heating season(s) The problem (as I see it) is that all levels of government are financially stressed due to the "anti-tax" crowd. Nobody wants to spend money on anything, and yet they all complain about "the government" when the river floods, or a bridge collapses, or the price of gas is $4.50! The worst offender is the federal government, simply because we have all been sold this BS of security! The billions wasted since 9/11 that could have bought us real security is criminal. The nasty truth is when people post here and say "I'm tired of paying for,,,,,," they just don't understand that they are not paying, but their children's children are going to pay. And if we don't pay now, we will surely pay later. The simple fact that we are spending ~$1 billion in Iraq every week means there is NOTHING left for what really must be done.

If we don't elect people who are willing to tell us truths we don't want to hear, we have only ourselves to blame. Go to a candidates debate or forum and ASK the pointed question. If the answer doesn't satisfy, work to find a candidate whose answer is better.

We all get caught up in national politics, but the place we can have the most effect is at the most local level. City and state leaders around the country have been leaders in understanding the problems, (because they feel it in their budgets!) and many have taken the lead. Forget for a moment about Obama/McCain, but lobby your city council to fund more busses, to replace their auto fleets with greener ones as they replace them. Lobby your state reps to give a sales tax break on Hi-ef aplliance, solar panels etc. And yes, encourage them to help the needy with their heating bills. And finally donate to your church or social service agencies to help as well.

None of us here want to hurt anyone. The issue here is to get the people who either don't understand, nor in some cases don't want to understand the gravity of the situation.

Icarus

 

any happiness I feel is for the fact that we're finally getting moving on solutions to help EVERYBODY. The poor and the rich alike. Hear me clearly: While expensive gas (and food, and housing, and...well everything) is a big hurt for the poor - cheap gas does not help them in the long run. Cheap gas helps NOBODY in the long run. Expensive gas has finally made other options "viable" and that will help everybody.

New domestic jobs. Money that stays in our economy. Clean air. Cheaper energy. Lower health care costs. These are the things that will help everybody... including and in many cases *especially* the poor. And they come with energy alternatives. And those alternatives come with expensive gas.

The only shame is in pushing for cheap gas to feel good about "protecting the poor" when it does no such thing except *maybe* in the short term.

 

Reality check. Nobody here doesn't care about the poor. We all do. It's a mathematical certainty that there will be mass starvation as a result of increasingly lower supplies of oil. The best we can do is mitigate the amount of it. Population control is the most important thing we can do. Second to that is anything.... ANYTHING, that can possibly jolt us all into stopping our wasteful habits. Including high gas prices. If it sounds harsh, too bad. It's kinder than you think. No apologies here.

 

I need to put my self in a time out, I have a lot to say about the herd mentallity and momentoum But the wife just informed me, A little girl that she follows with the same type of cancer as the daughters, has some clown linking porn sites to here cancer site!

 

My apology to all who have taken what I have said in a mean spirited way.

I think the supply is there and we haven’t reached the tipping point YET!

As for high prices, they suck! It just gets under my skin when you see what it is doing to others, they can’t afford to purchase another vehicle, more fuel efficient this or that.

You see people with multiple degrees of by gone days working several jobs to make ends meet. Can we say out sourcing and boomers headed to the home.

I believe as a whole, Americans want to do what is right, not just for themselves but for the environment tour so called leaders won’t pass a bill because it doesn’t have their name on it, suit their real constituents (Mr. Big bucks) needs or wants.

As for SUV’s, they will never die (shouldn’t say never) because of the need for this type and size of vehicle, ie, industrial-commercial-farm and ranch. If they do die then you are looking at something that gets about 5mpg to do the same work.

 

Post number 85 and/or there abouts.

 

trees grow back.. you just have to plant them.. but using your logic, the sun will burn out as well some time in the future.. maybe we should all go back to riding horses bareback..