A perfect Sunday afternoon is a perfect time to do a little car maintenance, so today I decided to combine a bunch of things including an oil change, what I hope will continue being a yearly cleanout/inspection of the brakes, and tire rotation. The scene at one point looked like this: . The front disks needed a little de-dusting and regreasing of the backing plates and pad end clips, and a quick spin and limbering-up of the slide pins as excruciatingly detailed here. The rears were pretty much pristine and needed only a superficial wipe. The donut is being used to allow both wheels on a side to be off at the same time, and if you haven't looked at your own spare tire, yes, it really is that hideous yellow. In fact if you haven't ever seen it now is a good time to unearth it, gaze upon its blatant ugliness, and make sure it's pumped up to 60 PSI which is what it wants before hiding its wretched countenance in the oubliette of the lower cargo well again. . Anyway, the Hydroedges are a directional tread and can thus only be rotated front-to-back, so having a side's worth of wheels off allows comparison between fore and aft treads. I had rotated them once about 5K after getting them, but now they'd been in the same positions for about 15K or more since wear had been completely imperceptible back then. Now, it's still more or less imperceptible by eye but perhaps discernible by electronic measurement. Here are the left-side treads matched up together [front is above]: . And the right-side ones: . There isn't really any obvious delta -- maybe half a pixel's worth of tread depth in the pictures included here, if that. However, something about the right rear *felt* funny as I ran my hand over the tread to brush off sand, and closer observation shows that it's got a little bit of sideways feathering in the tread, with one edge of the lugs feeling higher and sharper than the other: . Hmmm. If the road had been scrubbing the tire very slightly to the left, that means the right rear spindle is toed in just a tiny tad. After 15K the tire is not particularly bad, but is definitely different from the front. Now, I had been starting to notice a very slight delta on the wheel speed display of late, concerning the rear tires, and observing that the LED blink rate on very gentle right or left turning was telling me that the right rear's radius had become very slightly smaller than it used to be. Mysterious, given that I re-checked and had identical pressure and temperature in both right and left. So now I guess I've got my answer, after many miles. Never noticed anything with the old Integrities. . I also had been noticing a mild sort of "wooba-wooba" sound, especially while gliding sans engine at low/mid speed, like the first hints of a wheel bearing going bad, except that as far as I can tell the wheel bearings are all fine and tight. That sound has pretty much always been there, and didn't seem to change with turning side stress in either direction which would also help indicate bad bearings. Maybe it was something about this tire. . So I swapped everything front-to-rear in the process of working around all four wheels, and went out for a little test loop to reseat all the brake parts. It was there that I had a profound demonstration of the purpose for tire rotation. The wooba-wooba feeling is much more noticeable now, hits some weird resonance around 18 MPH, and runs considerably louder on the highway than it used to! And regen braking makes a positively awful grinding noise as it comes down through low speeds. Definitely seems to mostly be coming from the right front, but the left- side swap could also be having an effect too. There's no pulling or drift, just this horrible racket like I was driving your typical beat-up green Maxima hoopdie with the faded gold trim, one spray-painted fender, and all mismatched tires. . This is kind of annoying, and I hope it resolves itself back to quieter operation really soon as the tires adapt to their new positions. Trying to match a nice straight board against the rear sidewalls and out along the rocker panel doesn't show any obvious toe, so it must be really subtle. Maybe time to visit an alignment shop and get the numbers... . _H*
Interesting that such a small visible difference should make such noise after rotating. I haven't even checked the ugly donut since I got the car. Who knows what the pressure is - good reminder for us all. Been waiting for the maintainance light to start blinking. It should go on soon. I really want to try doing it myself this time if I can muster up the courage... we'll see.
Absolutely check the spare. I checked it a few months after I bought the car, and it was only 30 psi. I suspect a lot of dealers forget to top off the spare before delivering the car.
Interesting. I had my tires rotated a couple of weeks ago and hear a little of the same sound. I can see that the edge wear of the former front tires is higher than I like even though "Firestone" failed to report the metrics. Here are my numbers and comments: Front Lt: camber -0.5, caster 2.0, toe 0.10, depth 5/32 Front Rt: camber -1.0, caster 1.4, toe 0.10, depth 4/32 Rear Lt: camber -1.1, toe -0.03, depth 6/32 Rear Rt: camber -1.0, toe -0.03, depth 5/32 The toe is OK although I would like to see the front toe cut in half. The theory is when power is applied the front wheels will tend to pull-in and achieve an optimum toe. But my front edge wear suggests less toe may make a significant improvement. Caster is something I've not really looked at and my understanding is this is difficult to adjust without touching the front struts. I figured when I replace the front struts I'll work on getting this right but it difficult to tell exactly what it needs to be. When I turn around in the driveway, I hear 'tire noise' that I don't like but I can't tell which way to go and how to really understand the optimum values. I would like to reduce the rear camber but there are limits to what I can achieve with the metal tabs. However, the "Specialty Products" EZ Shim, 75800 looks to be a much better solution. I should be able to dial in perfect toe and camber. I would like to get all cambers down to 0.5, front and rear. The front right is a bolt adjustment and the rear wheels will be handled by the EZ Shims, or that is my story and I'm sticking with it. <grins> Bob Wilson
H I have to admit I clicked on your post expecting an entirely different sort of report. But I digress .... does changing the tire pressure effect the resonance intensity? That is, temporarily lower the pressures to stock, see if the noise is still there I had a fleet pickup make a similar noise a few years back and it drove me insane, as it occurred at around 55 km/h. I finally arranged to have somebody else drive the cursed thing while I followed The right rear tire appeared to be mounted improperly, it had a pronounced "wobble" to it. Oddly enough, I didn't feel this while driving These sort of NVH (Noise, Vibration, Harshness) issues can be hard to resolve. Is it possible a dragging caliper or loose brake part is amplifying the noise? I'm leaving tomorrow for a business trip, should be back in a week. If you wish I can look into this when I get back jay
When I rotate my tires I use 2 floor jacks (one in the front and one in the back). I can rotate all 4 tires in no time doing that.
I want to subscribe to see what Hobbit's alignment readings are. So I will make a couple of comments: 1. Just want to say this is a great title for the thread. 2. I had a wooba-wooba-wooba with my Explorer/ Goodyear RT/S tires that got progressively louder and louder so that I finally retired (a pun) them at 52k miles even though they could have gone another 10k based on tread depth. Full time 4wd is hard on tires, especially the front ones. And they don't get much of a break in the rear. 3. Be sure to ask for the alignment reading in degrees, not in inches. This was a big problem around the Sacramento area where no one seems to understand that there is any other way of expressing the toe except for fractional inches. You need to know the angles in degrees, not in 32nds of an inch.
It that a 4 by 8 you're using for a Jack Stand?? Come on, spend a few bucks to get some real ones! Guy used a cinder block once, the Caddy fell and crushed him dead! Guy used nothing but a three ton bottle jack to lift the front end of his car, car fell and cost him both of his legs. Kids were playing around a car up on four jacks stands, no tires on it, car twisted and fell off the jack stands, killing to of the kids hiding under neath it.
Ditto SparrowHawk60! Using a 2x8 *on edge* (!) as a backup for the jackstand is foolishly dangerous. If the stand fails it's much too likely that the 2x8 will simply fall over. Yes, I see the wheel chocks: do you want to bet life and limb that the tires have so little compliance that the chocks won't allow the car to move a half-inch? Please use something appropriate to the purpose, we want to keep your expertise available. To create an annoying wooba-wooba sound? No, thanks :_> On a FWD car it's safer to rotate tires only as needed to keep the two less-worn tires at the rear. This reduces the chances of fishtailing. See for example the bottom of this Michelin page at How to Buy: Tire Care & Buying Guide: Michelin Tires Doing this also means that *on average* you will have more tread on your tires. Consider: if you rotate the tires perfectly, just before you replace all four of them, all four of them will be worn out. Whereas, using the best-at-rear method, when the two front tires (which wear out faster on a FWD drive car) are worn out and at the point of replacement, the two rear tires still have considerable tread. It also means that the front wheels never have new tread on them, but that is a safer compromise.
What's bothers me in the picture is that the part of the tire in contact with the road is not flat, it seems like the tire is over inflated, are those tires radial ? if they are the should be flat, not like these...
Hobbit ! You are not alone ! I slid on ice this winter and hit a curb hard enough to bend a rim. I replaced it and had the front end aligned at a Toyota dealer. It was after that I noticed around 22 mph I heard a wooba sound too. It lasts up to around 55 mph. The weird thing is it doesn't seem to keep pace with how fast the tires are spinning. I took it back but the dealer said what sound. Let me know if you find anything. I'm going back to the dealer one more time.
Hmm, this sounds like a bad wheel bearing; except that you say the sound does not correlate with vehicle speed.
A bad bearing is what I thought too but it just doesn't seem to keep pace with how fast the wheels are spinning. Since I whacked the curb pretty good I thought maybe drive train, bearing, damaged tire.....not sure. I'm going to take it back in a few days for service so I think I'm going to make them go with me for a little drive.
A few points. . The wood wasn't actually needed or under any significant pressure; a halfass backup for vertical lift, NOT any pretense of lateral stability. Lateral stability was handled by the park lock and the chocks and the fact that the other side of the car was still on the ground, so spare me the "up on blocks" hysteria. And at no point during this operation, which I realize I will never convince some people of general non-sketchiness, was I actually underneath parts of the car. I was also careful to shake the car around on the way up to make sure it wasn't going to settle into some undesireable position. No more risk than doing a tire change at roadside with the stock jack, and that's the best I can say about it. . There's another thread going about jack stands, and hints at how one might be LESS safe using them indiscriminately. . When I spin the wheels I notice no lateral run-out or wiggling, so I don't think the rims themselves have any problem. The noise wasn't there before I rotated fore-and-aft, and I didn't take a sledgehammer to my wheels in the meantime. I'm going to assume for the moment that the noise is due to the wheels being somewhat differently oriented and weighted at front and rear, most likely from different camber. Bet that if I swapped them back right now, the noise would be gone again but the different wear patterns would then continue. . All tire treads look rounded under no load. Including the one in my infamous treadwear.jpg shot -- but if the center is so rounded like it is on top, you ask, how can all the wear be at the edges? Because as the tread hits the road, all bets are off under insufficient inflation pressure and the outer parts are taking all the weight. The Hydroedges in general look a bit flatter across the tread than the Integrities did, even at 44 psi or better. . . Any recommendations on types of shops which will do alignment CHECKS and just give me an accurate report, without trying to hard-upsell monkeying with same? Preferably while I wait? It isn't a service I've ever really shopped for. . _H*
Hi Hobbit, I suggest that you find wheel alignment shops in your local Yellow Pages. Then call them up & ask: what they would charge to read the current alignment settings what is the charge to set the front and rear suspension to spec, and for an appt so that you can wait while the work is being done. I had done this with my 2001 last summer after replacing the struts/shocks, and the alignment shop charged me $20 for the alignment report. They would have charged me ~$85 for a four wheel alignment including shims on the rear axle. As it turned out, no adjustment was recommended and I was satisfied with that finding.
I would just talk to the shop to find out if they can give you the info (measurements in degrees) that you need. Galaxee recommended finding a shop with a Hunter DSP 600 machine. I found that the local Goodyear shop had this kind of machine, but were unable to give me the measurements in the proper units. Maybe look for a younger, computer competent tech who knows how to use the software. Also, you probably want a shop that will let you watch if you are the least bit paranoid. I add this because the Toyota dealer takes the car to the back of the facility where you have no idea what they are doing. They gave me a printout that showed me that all alignment specs were perfect, but could not explain to me how they corrected the toe on the rear axle. A subsequent check at an independent shop showed that they did not correct anything; they just manipulated the readings to get what they wanted.
