Can the Prius run on ethanol?

CharlieT, no one who knows what E85 really is, would be in their right mind to use E85 in ANY car IMHO. You get worse mpg, and you waste resources to make the grain fuel (water grain electricity ... creating more CO2 then you are hoping to eliminate). There have been several threads written about this on PC. The only one who benefits from grain fuels is GM. If a gallon of fuel only has a small portion of gasoline ... than only that small portion of gasoline counts towards the estimated mpg of GM's gas guzzlin' fleet vehicles. Thus, GM can claim (using E85) that their suburban sized/type vehicle get somewhere in the neighborhood of 30mpg. They have to laugh when they make that kind of false, but legal claim, you'd think.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hill @ Jan 27 2007, 12:37 PM) [snapback]381721[/snapback]</div>

Brazil has done it. The Pirus ICE is just that an ICE. There are two sources of Ethanol flex fuel conveters in the USA. One makes the system here the other in Brazil. The system basically has three parts. A computer box that the existing Fuel injector leads plug into and corresponding leads from the supplied Computer control unit to go to the injectors. The supplied ECU lengents the pulse width to match the energy density of the fuel being used. An added sensor in the fuel line provides that info to the supplied ECU. Spark timing is alos controlled. A system treatment fluid is supplied to treat the existing fuel lines and seals to work with the ethnaol and possible corosion effects of the ethanol fluid. I am not a supplier of these systems but have used one. A Google search will provide good info. Finally energy balance is only part of the considerations to be taken into account in establishing an alternative to oil based fuels, additionally IMO the so called energy balance equasions are incorrect. I am the origional inventor of the most popular Diesel fuel injector currently being produced and also hold patents on several supercharger and Propane fueling systems.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Gripper @ Jan 30 2007, 12:31 PM) [snapback]382958[/snapback]</div>

Brazil also has a tremendous year-round supply of sugar cane, from which they distill ethanol. Constrast that with the corn crop in the US, which cannot grow all year. Nor is there much suitable land on which to expand growth.

As for converting the Prius, I suspect they had help from Toyota.

Which, at the very least, would screw up the MPG calculations. The Prius measures injector activity to compute fuel flow.

Is that a one-time treatment, or something one must add to each tankful?

You seem to have qualifications and probably know more about the issue than I do, but I suspect you are making too many assumptions that the Prius is a conventional engine.

I would suggest that a much greater advantage would be had by converting less fuel-efficient cars. They're also conventional systems, which would make the conversion easier. Why start with one of the most efficient vehicles, when you could achieve far greater gasoline savings by converting the millions of pickup trucks, SUVs, and larger passenger vehicles?

Even then, I don't think the US will be able to grow enough corn to make sufficient ethanol fuel. Remember, corn is a food source. Mexico is today encountering significant price increases due to the shortage of corn for tortillas, which are a staple food there. We should consider our food use of corn (including exports) before turning it into auto fuel.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rick Auricchio @ Jan 30 2007, 02:05 PM) [snapback]382979[/snapback]</div>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CharlieT @ Nov 19 2006, 02:01 AM) [snapback]351619[/snapback]</div>

Within a couple of months of getting my Prius (Jan., '06) I ran two consecutive tanks of E85 with no problem at all. I did not notice any drop in power over regular gasoline. I've also consistently run E10, also with no noticeable difference from regular gas. I have never seen the "Engine" light on my display. I see no reason why an Atkinson cycle engine would not run on an ethanol blend. There has been some debate about the pros and cons of ethanol blends on here, but the proof is in the pudding--I have not noticed any ill effects in the year I've had my car. I fuel up where it's convenient--I do not push it to try to get the most miles out of a tank--when the gauge reads two or three bars I fill it. That's why sometimes I use ethanol blends, sometimes not. My mpg for the past year was about 54 in the summer and now it's just under 49 mpg. I think those are fairly typical results as reported by most folks on here. My driving is just 10,000 miles per year. It's a mix of about 80% highway and 20% city. Winters are cold and snowy; summers are hot and muggy. (NY State) I have had two oil changes at the recommended 5K mile interval. I have had no problems with factory tires even in deep snow and icy roads. My tires are aired up to factory levels. I DO get the TPMS light when temps get into the teens. I think the Prius is a satisfactory car.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Macomb @ Feb 1 2007, 04:59 AM) [snapback]383442[/snapback]</div>

Please be aware that Toyota's guarantee is only up to E10.
There will be possibility to see the fuel leak through the fuel line caused by corrosion and others.
In Japan, there were a lot of fire accidents using ethanol fuel.
So, please do it at your own BIG risk.

Ken@Japan

 

So yesterday I posted about my concerns for corn-based ethanol. In today's paper there was an article about exactly that.

Farmers may switch from tomatoes to corn in California, because it's cheaper to grow and there's an increasing demand for corn. Result: Higher prices for all tomato-based products (and for other vegetables that farmers abandon).

Because corn is used for animal feed (especially poultry), they expect almost doubled prices for corn-based feed. Result: higher poultry prices.

It's the Unintended Consequences that will be a huge problem.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Gripper @ Jan 30 2007, 12:31 PM) [snapback]382958[/snapback]</div>

Care to offer some proof?

The Toyota Brazil site does not list the Prius as avalilable in that country.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(seasalsa @ Jan 31 2007, 08:32 PM) [snapback]383656[/snapback]</div>

I think you are extending to context of my post. It is not that Brazil has converted Pirus ICE but the whole contry to using Ethanol in ICE's. They are on the way to totally eliminating gas for ICE's in motor vehicles.

As far as energy balance and all that stuff pleas read this :

http://www.hybridcars.com/ethanol/benefits-drawbacks.html

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Gripper @ Feb 1 2007, 04:55 PM) [snapback]384189[/snapback]</div>

Sorry, guess I mis-read the title of this thread. Can the Prius run on ethanol?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(seasalsa @ Feb 1 2007, 06:20 PM) [snapback]384195[/snapback]</div>

The title is as you state. My comment was for a portion of the answer can ICE using an Miller / Atkinson Long expansion stroke engine run on Ethanol and it can.

 

After driving the '01 Prius for over a year on E10, and with 124,000 miles on it, I started splash-mixing additional ethanol a month ago. The vehicle is now up to E30 with no ill effects so far. I hope to increase it to about 50% alcohol and see for myself whether any seals, hoses, etc actually fail. Toyota does use alcohol-resistant parts but that resistance is only guaranteed to work up to 10% alcohol content.

 

Please take extreme care about fuel leak using E30 or E50, otherwise you'll see a fire in the engine room.

Ken@Japan

 

i think it not only about the sound of the engine running
when you open up the engine and look at the cylinders and petrol lines i think you will see some damage! (i think)

 

Your Quote below....'Brazil has done it....'.

ever wonder what they eat, where do they get their grain to feed their livestock. You guessed correctly if you guess, the good old US of A. Please remember we do need to eat on this planet.

 

E85 cannot be measured correctly by your ECU through the normal O2 sensor, since the voltage switchover for stochiometric with E85 is completely different than with normal gas.

So while it might run on E85, it's not at it's most efficient state and you might actually use more E85 than you can save in money at the pump.

Thomas

 

Thank you for your concerns Ken and Dutchman. Yes I am aware that the alcohol-resistant fuel system parts in the Prius are only guaranteed to work up to E10 levels, and that I am exceeding that. If it weren't an '01 with a ton of miles on it, I might not risk it. But I have to know, could normal vehicles run on E30 to E50? So I guess we will find out together. So far it's working fine and I'm up to about E25; will report any issues here.

 

Scummer you are absolutely correct; the decreased gas mileage and increased risk of fuel system failure more than counteract any positive price effects. If anyone is considering adding alcohol because it's cheaper, don't! I am experimenting for different reasons, not cost, and with the understanding that it may actually be more costly in the future.

 

What is the point of this experiment? What do you hope to learn? How will the results benefit anyone?

 

Two reasons that I can think of, really.

1. I believe if we continue to make and use alcohol here in the USA that it will one day be a renewable fuel source, or at least made partly from fossil and partly from renewable sources. And I'd much rather keep my money here in the US as much as possible.

2. The powers that be say that E10 is absolutely safe and wonderful for my car, and that E85 represents the "certain death" end of the scale. The scientist in me wants to believe that the car is capable of running a percentage of alcohol somewhere between 10 and 85. Not only this car, but maybe many others on the road today. I'm curious enough to want to test it for myself. Could it be that I'll still be here two years from now, driving this same vehicle with an E50 mixture, and with no failed parts? Maybe even with a cleaner fuel system? I shall find out.

Thanks for asking
........MontyMan.