TTAC Compares the Volt and the Prius

My take on the article? It goes like this:
All of GM's most inefficient gas guzzlers ... even if you drill a one inch hole in their gas tanks, are more efficient while parked idling, than the volt, because the aforrmentioned, at least already exist.

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I think the other thing everyone forgets is that the competition does not stand still. This article is comparing a car that we _may_ see by 2010 against one that was conceptualized over 10 years ago, and revamped in 2004. In the mean time Toyota and Honda have been happily planning, designing and testing their next generation of standard and plugin hybrids. GM may succeed in putting out a car thats better than the current Prius, but will be about 6 years late to market with it. If Toyota and or Honda don't have a vastly superior offering out about the same time or shortly after I'll be shocked. A ten year head start in any technology is pretty hard to overcome, unless the leader gets lazy.

Rob

 

Batteries are expensive because high-density energy storage is fundamentally difficult. Barring some technology breakthrough or dramatic change in our lifestyle infrastructure (for example, if most of us decide to live in hundred-story apartment buildings with employment and parkland nearby, all connected by mass transit), chemically fueled cars will be with us for a long time.

 

Barring complete denial of Peak Oil (which even oil company experts now acknowledge we are in fact in the middle of), how does one conclude chemically fueled cars will even have the chemicals? much less for a long time?

 

I'm all for any technology that reduces our dependence / usage of petro-fuel. If it takes GM 2 or 4 or 6 yrs I don't really care. If Toyota has a better product at the time the Volt is debuted that's better yet. If the Volt attracts GM'ers that would never set foot in a Prius and makes them more efficient drivers that's fantastic. If Honda locks up all the small vehicles and GM locks up all the large vehicles and Ford/Toyota split the middle of the market .... and the total market quintuples by 2015, Halelluja!!

When PHEV's, EREVs or EVs can offer me the same cost-effective driving as the Prius I'll switch. When biodiesel from algae becomes readily available all over the country I will probably drive a diesel Toyota. I don't see any negatives in any of this.

The trend of petro-fuel is obvious to me. The trend of vehicles is obvious as well. Personally I just want to stay ahead of the cost curve.

Since I sell Toyota's I hope they get there first with the best. But I like the idea of GM and Ford and Nissan and Honda converting their loyal owners to hybrids then let me show them the benefits of the Toyota systems. This has been an easy sell for the last 8 yrs. I say the more the merrier I'm confident of what the Toyota's can do.

 

We have the technology to produce synthetic chemical fuels from renewable energy. The only problem is that as long as fossil fuel prices are kept artificially low by government (taxpayer!) subsidies, nobody is going to invest in alternatives.

 

What I found most interesting in the article was the estimated MPG for the generation 3 Prius. The artilce states:


"Toyota will introduce their gen3 2010 Prius in January 2009. It will use a refined version of Toyota’s parallel Hybrid-Synergy drive (HSD), whereby electric and mechanically-transferred gasoline-engine propulsion are used individually as well as in various blended forms for propulsion.
Toyota has clearly stated goals for the gen3 Prius: reduced HSD-specific costs, weight reductions and most importantly, a targeted gain in efficiency of 15-20 percent. This should result in combined EPA mileage numbers of 53 - 55mpg (2008: 46mpg). Since average user mileage for gen2 Prius runs 42-44mpg, gen3 Prius should deliver real world mileage of 50+mpg."


I live in flatland Florida and including 55MPH driving I average about 57 MPG per tank as I drive my car the way a Prius should be driven to get max MPG. Therefore should I add 15% to 57MPG and expect to get 65 MPG regularlly on the new models? I just thought his 2008 quote of 46MPG was too low IMHO.

Brad
Tampa Bay Florida

 

I believe that he is quoting the current EPA figures, and while we all know that we should be getting above those figures, the general public still cannot believe it.

 

Consumer Reports said 45 mph combined. That's probably the U.S. average for ordinary drivers. Gen III would give those same drivers 53 to 55. And yes, with your terrain and your more intentional driving style, you should expect 65 mpg.

I'll probably still only get around 3 miles per kwh, because by then I hope to have a more efficient, but also heavier EV than I have now.

 

Hey Guys - calm down; GM is just pulling your chain. They really don't want to product electric cars. Remember the EV1? They already have the technology. If they really wanted to produce another electric car, they could do it within a year. Instead they are putting up every road block they can think of to discourage people from thinking electric. Forget GM.

Keith

 

Yeah. I wonder where GM would be if they had kept the EV1 and spent the intervening years refining and improving it?

We might all have GM cars instead of Toyotas today.

 

Yep, you are right kablooie. Remember that GM stands for Gasoline Motors.

Keith

 

My friend from Spain saz, GMC in his country stands for:

Grande, Malo, Caro. = Big, Inferior, Expensive...
G M C

 

No contesto.

I love my Prius. Almost as much as I love my next Prius.

 

im sure higher volumes will create cheaper parts, but a $500 electric motor aint gonna get ya very far. the motor upgrade in my Zenn was $1500 and its much smaller than what would be needed for the volt. i think $2000

also, i have a direct drive motor (so gearing could be better in a higher speed option) i am averaging just about 3¼ miles per KWH. faster motors in heavier cars will probably do a bit worse even with better gearing.

but i think there will be a multitude of "nearly there" options by 2010 anyway. i predict at least 3-4 EV's that do freeway speeds and have ranges approaching 100 miles by then anyway. it will be a very crowded field. all will be in the low $30,000 range. and i bet 2-3 of those cars will be built by companies most here do not currently know.

 

There is a lot of talk about cost on this thread.

Remember that BYD are bringing out a 60 mile range PHEV in the next year or two, and it is slated to be only around $20,000.

The company state that the premium for upgrading their F6DM sedan from gasoline only to 60-mile PHEV (including state of the art 20 kW lithium-iron-phosphate battery pack and all electronics etc) is only $6,000.

 

If I'm going to drive at freeway speed, I want to see crash tests before I buy. My Chinese-made Xebra would be a death trap at freeway speed. It's relatively safe only because its 35-mph top speed limits it to surface streets.

But it will be encouraging if the Chinese really bring this car to the U.S. market. It might push other companies, with more experience in safety, to offer competing cars.

 

good read .

 

Amen to that. I own Prius Gen 2s, but they couldn't have forced me at gunpoint to buy a Gen 1 Prius. That doesn't mean I'm not grateful to all of the people and Toyota for introducing the Gen 1 when they did. Different strokes for different folks.

At least GM is investing in PHEV technology, even if the 1st gen doesn't take the world by storm. Unfortunately, the Volt is probably destined to fail if GM is despised by so many current hybrid owners. Its definitely disappointing that GM is projecting such an expensive price tag, but that doesn't automatically mean the entire program has failed. Did anybody on this site say that Toyota failed when they took away the Lion battery for the Gen 3 Prius?

I stopped counting (a long time ago) the number of friends/associates/strangers/journalists/media who tried to convince me that my Prius was a 'overpriced', 'underpowered', 'mpg overrated', 'undersized', 'wierd looking' BAD INVESTMENT. I'm not about to turn around and do the same thing to a car that isn't even available for sale yet. Afterall, very few cars are actually good investments. Americans base their car purchasing decisions as much on status as they do on utility and economy.

Sure there's a lot of ifs, but IF the Volt gets released on schedule, I hope there are a decent amount of early-adopters willing to pay the premium for a cool looking, sporty serial PHEV. If it looks anything like the concept car, maybe they'll fill a different market niche. Maybe enough people will buy the Volt in the place of a Corvette or other similarly priced sports cars. I personally will consider buying the Volt. Maybe GM can succeed by turning it into a more luxury-oriented 'status symbol' car, paving the way for other, more economical sedan/hatchback styled PHEVs.

 

Did Toyota officially state the next gen would have a LiOn battery? As I recall Toyota stated they were investigating but didn't commit to deployment. The difference is that Toyota keeps its mouth shut and just performs. GM just runs its mouth and doesn't perform. The real news story would be when the Volt actually meets a deadline.