Plug-in Prius Display info.

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by 9G-man, Feb 4, 2008.

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  1. 9G-man

    9G-man Senior Member

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    I've wondered what some of the new energy/consumption display info was about on the plug-in Prius, but have not read a good description until now...
    Interesting.

    First Drive: Toyota Prius Plug-In Hybrid

    [​IMG]
    I assumed that a plug-in version of the Prius wouldn't be powerful enough when operating in electric-only mode, given that you have to accelerate gingerly in a regular Prius to achieve its top electric-only speed of 30 mph without triggering the gas engine. A drive in an experimental Prius plug-in hybrid, however, proved me wrong.

    [​IMG]
    The plug-in Prius is little more than a regular Prius with an additional nickel-metal-hydride battery pack in the space usually occupied by the spare tire. Aside from that, there are some software changes and an outlet on the rear quarterpanel opposite the one with the fuel filler; the Hybrid Synergy Drive system uses the same electric motors, engine and everything else.
    An EV button on the dashboard activates electric-only mode, which gives plenty of power for normal acceleration and lets you climb up to 62 mph before the gas engine turns on. This is a wholly different experience than the EV mode in the Highlander SUV and Lexus LS 600hL sedan, which only help a little when it comes to keeping the engine off; accelerate too quickly or up to about 30 mph, and their engines fire up.
    [​IMG]
    The plug-in Prius accelerated at a reasonable rate in EV mode, turning on the gas engine only when I called for heavy acceleration or exceeded 62 mph. Even better, the familiar in-dash touch-screen display gives additional information: The Energy Monitor screen adds a bar graph in the corner that indicates exactly how close you are to triggering the gas engine. By modulating the pedal position, I maintained the electric-only mode as long as I could. More information, Toyota says, helps drivers maximize their mileage.
    This screen also shows how much farther you can travel in EV mode until the battery's depleted — in actual miles. This is a mystery in other hybrids, as battery level appears only as a bar graph. This experimental plug-in has an electric range of about seven miles, but Toyota says that would at least double in a real product, which won't come until the next-generation Prius — with a lithium-ion battery — does.
    [​IMG]
    So when do we plug it in? The idea is to recharge plug-in hybrids overnight, but this model takes only three to four hours from a 110-volt household outlet. If you use 220 volts, it's only an hour to an hour and a half. The point behind charging is that it lets you start out with a full battery. Current hybrids often fire up the engine when you turn the car on to top off the battery pack. Even with the seven-mile range on fossil-fuel-free energy, Toyota stresses that the fuel burned by the end of the trip — not how long you go electric only — is what counts.
    The additional batteries help out in part by increasing the storage capacity for electricity generated through regenerative braking, which all hybrids do. For example, if you use a lot of juice climbing a hill you can gain more of it back when you coast or brake your way back down. In current hybrids, once the battery is full, any additional braking represents wasted energy.
    You might want a mileage figure for this car, but Toyota correctly points out that there's no reliable way to judge it yet — and that goes for other companies' plug-ins, too. One of the Clean Mobility Partnership's goals is to develop such a test cycle, and study the real-world "life-cycle" emissions of electric cars in different regions, because most of the country's electricity is generated by dirty, carbon-heavy coal. Berkeley's Institute of Transportation Studies will look into the demand for such cars by cycling drivers through plug-in hybrids, full electrics and other alternative-fuel cars. The viability of alternative propulsion depends on too many factors to mention, but includes the cost of manufacture, how much consumers will pay for what level of performance, and their tolerance for plugging in a car or having shorter ranges between charges or fill-ups.
    Overall I'm impressed with the experimental plug-in, partly because the Prius itself is a system designed to operate plug-free. A car designed from the start as a plug-in — as the current car's successor may be — will invariably be more efficient. Toyota and other automakers are busier than we know, and they keep the details to themselves.
     
    #1 9G-man, Feb 4, 2008
  2. micheal

    micheal I feel pretty, oh so pretty.

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    Very cool info! So Toyota is thinking a 14 mileish EV range when it does come out with Li-On. Not bad, but do wonder the mileage after the EV mode is out.
     
    #2 micheal, Feb 5, 2008
  3. miscrms

    miscrms Plug Envious Member

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    Boy, what I wouldn't give to get my hands on a copy of that software flash :D

    Rob
     
    #3 miscrms, Feb 5, 2008
  4. burritos

    burritos Senior Member

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    Will you be able to plug into the old electrical plugs that were made in for the EVs?
     
    #4 burritos, Feb 5, 2008
  5. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    oooh finally close up pics!!

    well with the EV mod, I can accelerate normally up to 55km/h so even with the current battery, you can do it. It'll cost you about 1 bar (if you're at 6 bars)
     
    #5 Tideland Prius, Feb 5, 2008
  6. etyler88

    etyler88 etyler88

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    I just pray that current Prii will be compatible if the owner is willing to hack into it. Toyota: please make the current MFD and Car computer compatible with the new system!
     
    #6 etyler88, Feb 5, 2008
  7. hobbit

    hobbit Senior Member

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    Which "old electrical plugs"? Like ones for a dryer or oven
    outlet? Presumably any sort of adapter could be built.
    .
    _H*
     
    #7 hobbit, Feb 5, 2008
  8. nerfer

    nerfer A young senior member

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    Nice article, BUT: according to the guidelines for posting news in this forum, you include some quotes from the article, but for copyright reasons, you do not post the entire article. Also, and this is perhaps even more important, you include a link and name the source, or did you actually take the test drive and write this report yourself??
     
    #8 nerfer, Feb 5, 2008
  9. bruceha_2000

    bruceha_2000 Senior Member

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    VERY cool, except they will have to do better than the huge "open to the weather" plug.

    I'm pretty sure I don't want to have that socket open to the rain, sleet, ice and snow while it charges.

    I've seen a video and the charging system is basically no different in size than the 'brick' used to charge a laptop with equal sized wiring until you get to the plug that goes in the car and it is HUGE! No reason they shouldn't have a regular sized plug that slips up inside a waterproof cover.
     
    #9 bruceha_2000, Feb 5, 2008
  10. bruceha_2000

    bruceha_2000 Senior Member

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    I think he means the publicly accessible charging stations that were built 10 or so years back. There is one in Burlington at City Market and I know there are/were places in CA that had free parking and charging areas. I don't know what voltage they carried but they have/had special plugs, not the standard wall outlet plug shown in the Plug-in Prius video.
     
    #10 bruceha_2000, Feb 5, 2008
  11. burritos

    burritos Senior Member

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    Yup. There's a handful at our local costco, home depot, target, and kaiser hospital parking lots. They're premium spots. Next to the handicapped spots(though I'd park at the far end of the lot to get free juice). They're also always empty.
     
    #11 burritos, Feb 5, 2008
  12. drees

    drees Senior Member

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    #12 drees, Feb 6, 2008
  13. patsparks

    patsparks An Aussie perspective

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    A bit of a guess but that looks like a 3 phase plug which is sealed during use and has a cover over it when not in use. I'm also guessing they used that plug to ensure a light weight "inside use only" cord isn't substituted for a weather proof cable tough enough to be driven over and out in the weather.
     
    #13 patsparks, Feb 6, 2008
  14. TonyPSchaefer

    TonyPSchaefer Your Friendly Moderator
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    I had someone at work asking my the very same thing. My response was simple.

    I can achieve tank averages of more than 65MPG in a hybrid that can travel less than a mile on battery alone. That battery is charged and discharged during normal driving. If you give me a battery that is capable of multiple miles, I am completely confident that will top 100MPG with no problem.
     
    #14 TonyPSchaefer, Feb 6, 2008
  15. Winston

    Winston Member

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    Toyota's answer regarding mpg is good; "You might want a mileage figure for this car, but Toyota correctly points out that there's no reliable way to judge it yet". It always bugs me when I see plug-ins that say "I get 100mpg". That claim is a bunch of BS without qualifying the statement with an asterisk.

    Note:* I get 100 miles per gallon of gas, but I supplement my fuel with electricity from my home. Thus I get 100 miles per gallon of gas plus some electricity.

    I pay up to 23.5 cents a Kw here in the SF Bay area. How many dollars per mile will it cost me to run on electricity?
     
    #15 Winston, Feb 6, 2008
  16. miscrms

    miscrms Plug Envious Member

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    Well, that depends. Is the goal to make a more efficient vehicle, or use less gas? I agree the former would be preferable, but most emphasis currently is on the later.

    As an interesting data point, you can find the 2000 RAV4 EV on fueleconomy.gov and compare it to the 2007 Prius:

    --------------Prius---RAV4EV
    Equiv MPG-----46-----104
    Fuel $/yr-----$999----$391
    Petoleum/yr---7.4-----0.4 barrels
    CO2 tons/year-4.0----4.2

    This matches most of what I have seen. EVs are cheaper to operate, and cleaner than most cars even under coal. For an additional ~10-20% fuel cost (putting it at 50% of the cost of the prius) The RAV4 EV would be virtually CO2 free, by purchasing renewable energy. You would expect the PHEV Prius in EV mode to be at least as efficient as the RAV4, probably better.

    If your energy costs are really 2.5X the national average, its not going to be as big an advantage cost wise. I believe they are estimating based on an average energy cost of $0.08 per kWh, and gas at $3.07. There is another argument that most EVs will be charged at night when energy costs are much lower, often in the $0.02 to $0.04 per kWh range. This would cut the annual fuel cost to ~$98 to $195.

    This article claims the PHEV prius will have an MPGe of 113mpg running in EV mode, although I'm not sure where that data is from.
    Plug-in Prius - X Prize Cars

    Rob
     
    #16 miscrms, Feb 6, 2008
  17. miscrms

    miscrms Plug Envious Member

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    I am fairly certain the answer to this is no. Which is not to say that someone couldn't build a converter. From everything I have heard discussed the intention is you charge up in your garage overnight on a standard plug, and then get really good mileage for the first x miles of the day.

    In my opinion one of the fatal flaws of the first EV "boom" was the obsession with trying to increase daily range by building a massive recharging infrastructure. In my mind the natural beauty of EVs is that unlike H2, you don't need to build up infrastructure. It already exists. If you stick to standard plugs and standard voltage and circuit currents, you can charge up your car anywhere. It just takes 8 hrs. instead of 4. For most people's daily routines, research shows this would have been fine.

    Fortunately the PHEV displaces the perceived need to charge up everywhere you go. When you run out of battery, you just switch over to gas. Ideally it would be great to be able to top up while you are out, but not critical. I like the idea someone mentioned about northern cities, where every parking meter has a standard outlet for people to plug in block heaters. If this already works there, why not do it everywhere!

    Rob
     
    #17 miscrms, Feb 6, 2008
  18. nerfer

    nerfer A young senior member

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    Everything's fine, except you have the petroleum/yr in barrels reversed between the Prius and RAV4EV. Also note that they're using the 2008 EPA fuel economy numbers even for the 2004 Prius.
    Here's the link: RAV4 vs. Prius
     
    #18 nerfer, Feb 6, 2008
  19. dipper

    dipper Senior Member

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    In the PG&E electric KWh usage, it could cost up to 37 cents/KWh if you get to the fifth tier rates. So I really hate the cost usage reports with EV and electrical appliances since it does not reflect the real cost. I have heard of people with $500-$800/month in PG&E bills... most for electricity (not gas) usage.

    See this pdf for more info... http://www.gosolarnow.com/pdf files/costperkWh E1 2006.pdf

    Electricity is not cheap here in this part of CA. Darrell could do it because he was willing to dish out big bucks up front for solar panels.

    I am a concervative user, and I still in the 3rd tier at $0.22/KWh.
     
    #19 dipper, Feb 6, 2008
  20. Winston

    Winston Member

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    As far as the goal that I look for, it is lowest cost per mile. I am willing to pay a bit more to reduce emissions, but I don't feel that there is a significant reduction in emissions with an all electric car vs the Prius.

    Since I am a cheapskate, and I live in an area with extremely high electricity rates, I see no benefit to electric, or plug-in.

    As far as getting cheap electricity at night, one would have to install a special electric meter in order to get that lower rate.

    Thanks for posting the electric rates for PG&E. I don't know anyone that stays within that "baseline" tier. I am always in Tier 3 or 4.
     
    #20 Winston, Feb 7, 2008
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